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Old 07-28-2010, 12:17 PM   #1
MatthewVilter
 
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Default Flexibility

I don't understand the Flexibility advantage. Why does it give a bonus to Climbing? Why is it 5 points? For anyone with 1 point in Climbing (DX-1) Flexibility is like putting 7 points in climbing. (8 point total, DX+2) On top of that it gives you ...other... bonuses. What is going on here? I don't get why Flexibility even helps with climbing. And if I compare it with Talents -and even if you look at breaking free as equivalent to a skill- it should cost ~15 points!
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:34 PM   #2
swampthing
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

I've certainly seen climbing involve some poses that I could not strike in real life. Given that, the bonus for Flexibility is not surprising for me.

It is pretty cheap compared to Talents, though it is also a bit more focused that most of them.
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:37 PM   #3
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Now that I look at it does seem sufficiently obviously underpriced that I wonder if it's intentional. It costs less than a +3 racial bonus to Climbing would!
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Old 07-28-2010, 12:50 PM   #4
tanniynim
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

I had a similar issue with Perfect Balance. I'd either increase the cost of Flexibility to 8 points, or decrease the bonuses to 2. The biggest issue is that it's a package deal.

With a racial bonus, you can't just "choose" to have the +3 for 6 points. It's usually part of a different package.

The same goes for this "package." That certainly should result in some decreased cost, but I agree that 5 is a little low.
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:14 PM   #5
Edges
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

For what it's worth, here's my Flexibility house rule:


Flexibility
5pt/lv. Up to 4 levels
You get a +1 per level to Acrobatics, Climbing, Dancing, Erotic Art, Escape, rolls escape a grapple, and to cancel penalties for working in cramped quarters.
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Old 07-28-2010, 01:20 PM   #6
PK
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
I don't understand the Flexibility advantage. Why does it give a bonus to Climbing? Why is it 5 points? For anyone with 1 point in Climbing (DX-1) Flexibility is like putting 7 points in climbing. (8 point total, DX+2) On top of that it gives you ...other... bonuses. What is going on here? I don't get why Flexibility even helps with climbing. And if I compare it with Talents -and even if you look at breaking free as equivalent to a skill- it should cost ~15 points!
This has come up before. IMO, the best fix is to simply rule that instead of a flat +3 to Climbing, it lets you offset up to -3 in penalties when Climbing. That's far more fair.

(Note: This is a suggested fix, not an erratum. Unfortunately, this cannot be changed at this point without impacting many characters, templates, etc., so it's going to stand as-is.)
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Old 07-28-2010, 02:11 PM   #7
TNorthover
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
I don't understand the Flexibility advantage. Why does it give a bonus to Climbing?
The ability to stand up from a foot somewhere around shoulder level, most obviously.
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:14 AM   #8
MatthewVilter
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Thank you for all the replies!

I don't know about flexible people automatically being able to retain strength while contorted...
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Originally Posted by TNorthover View Post
The ability to stand up from a foot somewhere around shoulder level, most obviously.
But this does help me visualize a flexible person climbing faster/easier then an inflexible one.

As for the point cost, I do like the idea of Flexibility only canceling penalties. Let's look at how that would work.

Escape: Modern handcuffs give you -5 so Flexibility helps in that case and the fact that dislocating your limb (B192) halves the penalty for secure bonds means that course of action has anti-synergy with Flexibility which that makes sense to me. OTOH I don't think I like the rules for Escape much. -5 for handcuffs seems low to me and if you can slip cuffs I would think you could do it in less then a minute. Moreover if your bonds are not "particularly secure" dislocating your limb won't help you with the RAW but needing to do that seems more tied to your relative ability to succeed then the absolute difficulty of the bounds to me.

Erotic Art: This skill is left pretty abstract so I think I would just say that in any situation where an odd position would be called for you get -x for it being hard and +x for it being so hot. Yeah I think that works okay.

Break free: I would say Flexibility just cancels the bonus your foe gets for using two hands or for pining you (B371). In that case Flexibility would only not help in a non-pin, one handed grapple. Seems okay to me.

Climbing: As long as the GM can keep clear in his head/notes what penalties are for how slippery or vertical a surface is and what penalties are for hand/foot holds being far apart this might work okay.

Any thoughts?
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Old 07-29-2010, 01:42 AM   #9
The Benj
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewVilter View Post
Thank you for all the replies!

I don't know about flexible people automatically being able to retain strength while contorted...

But this does help me visualize a flexible person climbing faster/easier then an inflexible one.

As for the point cost, I do like the idea of Flexibility only canceling penalties. Let's look at how that would work.

Escape: Modern handcuffs give you -5 so Flexibility helps in that case and the fact that dislocating your limb (B192) halves the penalty for secure bonds means that course of action has anti-synergy with Flexibility which that makes sense to me.
This raises the question of whether you'd halve the -5 to -3 then reduce it by 3 (to 0) or reduce it to -2 then halve it to -1. Either seems fine, although I'm inclined to err on the side of the former.

Quote:
OTOH I don't think I like the rules for Escape much. -5 for handcuffs seems low to me
Low as in not a big enough penalty or low as in your chances will be too low?

Quote:
...and if you can slip cuffs I would think you could do it in less then a minute.
That's what taking a penalty in order to do things faster is for. You could take a total of -14 (not taking Flexible or dislocation into account) in order to escape in 6 seconds if you want.

Quote:
Erotic Art: This skill is left pretty abstract so I think I would just say that in any situation where an odd position would be called for you get -x for it being hard and +x for it being so hot. Yeah I think that works okay.
Yeah, penalties aren't something that are... uh... fully explored in the write-up for the skill. I'll confess to mostly handwaving this one.

Quote:
Break free: I would say Flexibility just cancels the bonus your foe gets for using two hands or for pining you (B371). In that case Flexibility would only not help in a non-pin, one handed grapple. Seems okay to me.
Yeah, that sounds alright to me too. If someone's just got a hand on you, being able to twist in funny ways isn't going to be nearly the boon that it would be when they were relying on the extra control of a two-handed grip and you suddenly rotate your arm in a way you shouldn't be able to.

Quote:
Climbing: As long as the GM can keep clear in his head/notes what penalties are for how slippery or vertical a surface is and what penalties are for hand/foot holds being far apart this might work okay.
Slippery, sure, but being bendy is also useful for keeping your centre of gravity close to the surface while you maneuver.

Last edited by The Benj; 07-29-2010 at 01:43 AM. Reason: Markup editing
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Old 07-29-2010, 03:36 AM   #10
MatthewVilter
 
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Default Re: Flexibility

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
This raises the question of whether you'd halve the -5 to -3 then reduce it by 3 (to 0) or reduce it to -2 then halve it to -1. Either seems fine, although I'm inclined to err on the side of the former.
Yeah I don't know... The former is nicer for the players so I guess I'd go with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
Low as in not a big enough penalty or low as in your chances will be too low?
That was not clear at all was it? ;) I think the penalty should be bigger. OTOH I don't know much about handcuff performance IRL and I know gurps is known for good research...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
That's what taking a penalty in order to do things faster is for. You could take a total of -14 (not taking Flexible or dislocation into account) in order to escape in 6 seconds if you want.
See that sounds more like it to me, out in 6 seconds at -14. But I don't see how more time is going to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Benj View Post
Slippery, sure, but being bendy is also useful for keeping your centre of gravity close to the surface while you maneuver.
Good point.
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