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 12-03-2020, 05:11 AM #1 RedMattis     Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sweden, Stockholm GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points I'm confused. What is the maximum control points? Is it equal to Trained-ST, or Trained-ST multiplied as per the Grip ST Table? So a ST 10 character with no skills using one hand has a 5 CP max. With two hands 10 CP. If he is using two arms and a leg it is 11 CP, and two arms+two legs it is 15? How about extra limbs, do they have the 'diminishing returns' on Trained-ST and max CP as well by the way? Does a 4-armed dude have 20 CP ((two arms, ST*1) + (0.5*2, 2x Extra Arms))? Or is it diminished similar to Two Hands & Two Legs, and lands at 14 or something? How about characters who can grapple with their torso, like a snake-person? If we have a ST 10 snek-medusa grappling a person with two hands and her snake-torso does it end up as ST 20 ((two arms, ST*1) + (0.5*2, 2x Extra Arms)), or something similar to Two Hands & Two Legs again? __________________ "Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared"
12-03-2020, 07:03 AM   #2
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RedMattis I'm confused. What is the maximum control points? Is it equal to Trained-ST, or Trained-ST multiplied as per the Grip ST Table? So a ST 10 character with no skills using one hand has a 5 CP max. With two hands 10 CP. If he is using two arms and a leg it is 11 CP, and two arms+two legs it is 15? How about extra limbs, do they have the 'diminishing returns' on Trained-ST and max CP as well by the way? Does a 4-armed dude have 20 CP ((two arms, ST*1) + (0.5*2, 2x Extra Arms))? Or is it diminished similar to Two Hands & Two Legs, and lands at 14 or something? How about characters who can grapple with their torso, like a snake-person? If we have a ST 10 snek-medusa grappling a person with two hands and her snake-torso does it end up as ST 20 ((two arms, ST*1) + (0.5*2, 2x Extra Arms)), or something similar to Two Hands & Two Legs again?
2013 version: use whatever Grip ST you calculate given the limbs you're using. Adding more limbs is a way of increasing control, and it usually comes at a penalty (adding your legs means you're committed to being prone).

2020 version: Oh my God what was I thinking? Control Max is just Lifting ST, modified by bonuses to ST for Wrestling or Sumo or whatever.

There are more than a few things that seemed like a good idea as I was writing it in 2012 or so that I'd do differently now.
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12-03-2020, 07:15 AM   #3
RedMattis

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole 2013 version: use whatever Grip ST you calculate given the limbs you're using. Adding more limbs is a way of increasing control, and it usually comes at a penalty (adding your legs means you're committed to being prone). 2020 version: Oh my God what was I thinking? Control Max is just Lifting ST, modified by bonuses to ST for Wrestling or Sumo or whatever.
Doesn't that end up a bit too low to pin someone?

A four-armed dude with ST 10 would then just be able to apply 10 CP in total, right? Or is there some way around the 10 CP limit for him? CP used in locks still count to the total CP, right? That basically means he can only get his enemy down to ST/DX-5 which is a fair bit, but not a pin.

Similarly the snek-dusa would basically just wrap her torso around some greek soldier's torso, but couldn't really use her arms to restrain the soldier's arms without loosening the grip on the soldier's torso?

Quote:
 There are more than a few things that seemed like a good idea as I was writing it in 2012 or so that I'd do differently now.
Any compilation of those things around here? I find Technical Grappling to be a very cool book, but I'm struggling a bit to figure out how to do some stuff (and teach my players).

Edit: Woudn't Max CP = Trained-ST basically mean you'd never use your legs for grappling unless it is for the slightly ST for the CP-damage-rolls?
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"Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared"

Last edited by RedMattis; 12-03-2020 at 07:18 AM.

12-03-2020, 07:25 AM   #4
johndallman

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Cambridge, UK
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole There are more than a few things that seemed like a good idea as I was writing it in 2012 or so that I'd do differently now.
Enough for a new edition? Like quite a few people, I admire the current book while finding it too complicated for routine use.

 12-03-2020, 08:08 AM #5 Anders     Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Gothenburg, Sweden Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points I think Dungeon Grappling, for Dungeon Fantasy, is the new and revised version. __________________ “When you arise in the morning think of what a privilege it is to be alive, to think, to enjoy, to love ...” Marcus Aurelius
12-03-2020, 08:40 AM   #6
Plane

Join Date: Aug 2018
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RedMattis Doesn't that end up a bit too low to pin someone?
I think the trick is you build it to max then Pass Limb and retain that old CP while starting a new grapple from 0, and just keep doing that?

12-03-2020, 08:45 AM   #7
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by RedMattis Doesn't that end up a bit too low to pin someone?

Sorry, I was trying to get my kids off to school and dashed off an incomplete reply.

In FDG (Fantastic Dungeon Grappling), Max CP is Lifting ST if you're doing a regular attack, double Lifting ST if you AoA. So there's plenty of room for serious penalties to ST and DX, but you have to commit.

Quote:
 A four-armed dude with ST 10 would then just be able to apply 10 CP in total, right? Or is there some way around the 10 CP limit for him? CP used in locks still count to the total CP, right? That basically means he can only get his enemy down to ST/DX-5 which is a fair bit, but not a pin.
CP used in locks count double, so while you can only obtain 10, it has the effect of 20. So that still tracks.

Quote:
 Similarly the snek-dusa would basically just wrap her torso around some greek soldier's torso, but couldn't really use her arms to restrain the soldier's arms without loosening the grip on the soldier's torso?
Starting to get sub-resolution here.

Quote:
 Any compilation of those things around here? I find Technical Grappling to be a very cool book, but I'm struggling a bit to figure out how to do some stuff (and teach my players).
No compilation, but I did manage to take 50 pages of rules down to about five in Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, losing, well...very little.

Quote:
 Edit: Woudn't Max CP = Trained-ST basically mean you'd never use your legs for grappling unless it is for the slightly ST for the CP-damage-rolls?
Trained ST would go up if using your legs under the full TG rules. The training bonus applies after the grip ST calculation, and in this case, using the full complex "deduce effective ST from effective Basic Lift [1]" method would have you add the training bonus at the end.

So you'd still get a benefit from using your legs.

[1] Sorry, just got squirmy I actually thought all that mid-game math was a good idea. Ever.
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12-03-2020, 08:46 AM   #8
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Anders I think Dungeon Grappling, for Dungeon Fantasy, is the new and revised version.
Fantastic Dungeon Grappling is the full title. I also wrote Dungeon Grappling after TG but long before FDG...but that book is for 5e, Pathfinder RPG, and OSR games.
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12-03-2020, 08:47 AM   #9
DouglasCole
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Burnsville, MN
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Plane I think the trick is you build it to max then Pass Limb and retain that old CP while starting a new grapple from 0, and just keep doing that?
No. That's not how it works. Max CP is MAX CP, not 'per grapple.' It's the maximum amount of control a person with that strength and training can apply under any circumstances.
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12-03-2020, 09:30 AM   #10
RedMattis

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sweden, Stockholm
Re: GURPS Technical Grappling Max Control Points

Quote:
 Originally Posted by DouglasCole Trained ST would go up if using your legs under the full TG rules. The training bonus applies after the grip ST calculation, and in this case, using the full complex "deduce effective ST from effective Basic Lift [1]" method would have you add the training bonus at the end.
Er, I'm confused. Would this effect the Max Control Points?

Either way, I bought the Fantastic Dungeon Grappling pdf, and I'm having a read right now. I wasn't aware of its existence before.
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"Prohibit the taking of omens, and do away with superstitious doubts. Then, until death itself comes, no calamity need be feared"

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