Invisibility as an enhancement for Insubstantiality

[AlexanderHowl]

I was wondering what would happen if we made Invisibility as an enhancement for Insubstantiality? In this case, Invisibility (Machines Only) would be a +20% enhancement, +25% if Switchable, Invisibility (Non-Machines Only) would be a +45% enhancement, +50% if Switchable, Invisibility (Universal) would be a +70% enhancement, +75% if Switchable, and every additional form of vision impacted by the Invisibility would be a further +10% enhancement. The cost assumes that the Invisibility already suffers from Accessibility, Only while insubstantial, -10%, and that any further enhancements or limitations only modify the cost of Insubstantiality. So, what do you think?

[whswhs]

I really can't see the point. We have an acceptable set of rules now. And you know, there's no necessary association between the two traits.

[AlexanderHowl]

Other than the fact that nearly every creature with Insubstantiality possesses some form of Invisibility? I am not saying do not have them as separate things for characters that need such things, I just desire some simplification of templates and characters who have both.

[Anaraxes]

Just opens up the possibility of munchkins gaming loopholes, as you can never guarantee that the cost is the same as buying them separately with every combination of modifiers.

Then you'd also have to create an analog for every modifier for Invisibility as a modifier for Insubstantiality. That will introduce its own complexities, especially when the two abilities have common modifiers. For instance, let's say Invis becomes an +50% Enhancement to Insub (40/80 points, so the most basic form is 80 + 40, the same price as currently. Insub + Can Carry Objects (Heavy) is is 160; Invis + Can Carry Objects (Heavy) is 80; the combination is 240. Proposed Insub + Can Carry Objects + Invis is 80 + 150% = 200. The only way to make those match is for there to be two Can Carry Objects, depending on whether or not you also take Invis on your Insub. The cure here is worse than the disease.

Having duplicate information that you have to keep identical is generally a bad idea in the information processing world. A reference is much easier to keep in sync than a copy.

I don't see how having two abilities on a template is simpler than having an Enhancement for some other base ability. Separate abilities won't get tangled with each other's math. Line count on the character sheet doesn't matter.

[Aldric]

Why not just link them? If you need the same modifier on both, you take it, but also have no problem for those that don't match. And they would be up at the same time

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Aldric

Why not just link them? If you need the same modifier on both, you take it, but also have no problem for those that don't match. And they would be up at the same time

Originally Posted by Anaraxes

Just opens up the possibility of munchkins gaming loopholes, as you can never guarantee that the cost is the same as buying them separately with every combination of modifiers.

Sometimes GM's open up munchkin bait on purpose. A GM could feel that the extra 12 points for linking two abilities found linked to each other in most fiction where one appears offend their sensibilities.

There is precedent for treating an advantage as a modifier on another advantage, in the form of the swarm modifier on diffuse.

That said, as a GM I'd just house rule that linking these particular advantages is done at +0% if they're not independent, and build a meta-trait that does what you want, and allows you to refer to the ability quickly.

[AlexanderHowl]

Link would be a needless expense for Insubstantiality and Invisibility since Invisibility is always on unless you have Switchable (in which you can turn it on and off) or a suitable limitation, like Accessibility (Only while insubstantial, -10%) or Accessibility (Only against material, -10%). For example, a ghost might have Invisibility (Accessibility, Only against material, -10%; Accessibility, Only while insubstantial, -10%; Affects Machines, +50%; Extended, Magnetic, Sonar, and Vibration, +40%; Switchable, +10%) [80]. While insubstantial, the ghost is always invisible to the electromagnetic vision, magnetic detection, sonar vision, and vibration detection of material beings. It does not have to pay for Link for either Insubstantiality or Invisibility (saving a minimum of 12 CP) because Invisibility defaults to being always on.

[Stormcrow]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It does not have to pay for Link for either Insubstantiality or Invisibility (saving a minimum of 12 CP) because Invisibility defaults to being always on.

If what you're asking for is a Link, then there is no question of whether it "pays" or not because there is nothing to compare it to. Being switchably invisible AND insubstantial is a tremendously powerful ability.

Meta-trait:

Switchable Invisible Insubstantiality: Invisibility (Affects Machines, +50%; Can Carry Objects, no encumbrance, +10%; Switchable, +10%; Link, +10%) [72]; Insubstantiality (Can Carry Objects, no encumbrance, +10%; Link, +10%) [96]. 168 points.

(Can Carry Objects added to avoid the nudity!)

[AlexanderHowl]

Originally Posted by Stormcrow

If what you're asking for is a Link, then there is no question of whether it "pays" or not because there is nothing to compare it to. Being switchably invisible AND insubstantial is a tremendously powerful ability.

Meta-trait:

Switchable Invisible Insubstantiality: Invisibility (Affects Machines, +50%; Can Carry Objects, no encumbrance, +10%; Switchable, +10%; Link, +10%) [72]; Insubstantiality (Can Carry Objects, no encumbrance, +10%; Link, +10%) [96]. 168 points.

(Can Carry Objects added to avoid the nudity!)

You cannot have Switchable and Link at the 10% level. By using Switchable, you are able to turn Invisibility off. With Link at the 10% level though, the two powers can only operate together, so turning one off will always turn the other off. For 16 CP less, you can have the same effect by giving Invisibility the limitation of Accessibility, Only while insubstantial, -10%, allowing you to automatically become invisible while insubstantial. Since the default assumption of Invisibility is that it is always on, Switchable allows you to circumvent that assumption by changing your default to visible, but that means that you need Once On, Always On, +50%, to allow you to be invisible while asleep, unconscious, etc. Usually On, +5%, allows naturally invisible entities to became visible without changing their default to visible.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

It does not have to pay for Link for either Insubstantiality or Invisibility (saving a minimum of 12 CP) because Invisibility defaults to being always on.

It does if it doesn't want to spend an extra round then turning invisible. As per GURPS Powers pg 155 Involuntary Deactivation.

I can buy the notion that the power "turns itself back on" (in that I might not require a Ready Maneuver on the part of the ghost), but it will take a round.