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Old 05-22-2019, 08:41 AM   #131
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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Originally Posted by johndallman View Post
Probably not. Human divers have air spaces within them, which probably make them more vulnerable to sonar attacks.
Fish have swim bladders, which is the most vulnerable part of their bodies to shock waves. If these underwater thingies have gas spaces for buoyancy control, they could be similarly vulnerable.

Digestion will also produce gases, making the guts of must things vulnerable.

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Old 05-22-2019, 08:56 AM   #132
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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Fish have swim bladders, which is the most vulnerable part of their bodies to shock waves. If these underwater thingies have gas spaces for buoyancy control, they could be similarly vulnerable.

Digestion will also produce gases, making the guts of must things vulnerable.

Luke
These things can survive at significant depths and also out of the water for a period of at least an hour, perhaps longer.

It is entirely possible that magic is involved when it comes to extremes of environmental tolerence they are believed to have exhibited, but at the very least, they seem to be as versatile as dolphins when it comes to the depths they can occupy. I imagine that they have something analogous to swim bladders, if not to lungs.

Of course, the PCs suspect that there are more than one species of marine ultraterrestials, at least one apparently similar to humanoid marine mammals, one or more type of human hybrids and another species (or more) adapted entirely to underwater life, incapable of surviving on land without supernatural means.
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Old 05-22-2019, 09:25 AM   #133
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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These things can survive at significant depths and also out of the water for a period of at least an hour, perhaps longer.

It is entirely possible that magic is involved when it comes to extremes of environmental tolerence they are believed to have exhibited, but at the very least, they seem to be as versatile as dolphins when it comes to the depths they can occupy. I imagine that they have something analogous to swim bladders, if not to lungs.

Of course, the PCs suspect that there are more than one species of marine ultraterrestials, at least one apparently similar to humanoid marine mammals, one or more type of human hybrids and another species (or more) adapted entirely to underwater life, incapable of surviving on land without supernatural means.
As far as the technical details of buoyancy control go (excluding magic), sharks can be nearly neutrally buoyant by having large oil-filled livers and not having mineralized bones, as well as using hydrodynamic lift while swimming. Squid likewise have no mineralized structures in their bodies. Although muscle is more dense than water (making them somewhat negatively buoyant), they can compensate for thus by using lift from their fins and active swimming. Things that live in the deep sea often significantly reduce their muscle mass, becoming largely gelatinous. While this reduces their athletic ability, it does allow them to float suspended in the water column. The giant squid is a deep sea animal but is also muscular and athletic, it keeps neutral buoyancy by replacing sodium with ammonium for its electrolytes. But for athletic things with hard, mineralized body parts (bones, shells), gas filled structures seem to be about the only way to go.

Also, as far as weaponizing sonar goes - if you can focus the sonar beam to the point of producing cavitation at the target, gas-tissue interfaces become moot and the cavitation bubbles will just tear the target apart. But getting sonar to this point will probably require some R&D (not necessarily getting sonar to produce cavitation - it does this all too easily, and is bad for detection so the engineers want to avoid it. But rather the ability to produce cavitation at a desired point far from the emitter, and also the focusing and targeting of the beams).

Luke

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Old 05-22-2019, 04:21 PM   #134
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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As far as the technical details of buoyancy control go (excluding magic), sharks can be nearly neutrally buoyant by having large oil-filled livers and not having mineralized bones, as well as using hydrodynamic lift while swimming. Squid likewise have no mineralized structures in their bodies. Although muscle is more dense than water (making them somewhat negatively buoyant), they can compensate for thus by using lift from their fins and active swimming. Things that live in the deep sea often significantly reduce their muscle mass, becoming largely gelatinous. While this reduces their athletic ability, it does allow them to float suspended in the water column. The giant squid is a deep sea animal but is also muscular and athletic, it keeps neutral buoyancy by replacing sodium with ammonium for its electrolytes. But for athletic things with hard, mineralized body parts (bones, shells), gas filled structures seem to be about the only way to go.
Well, I'm imaging the creatures who are the greatest threat to humans near Rio as fey predators who have shark- or barracuda-like qualities in a bipedal, humanoid form.

The legs should be used as almost a tail when they swim, but on the surface, they should be capable of walking, albeit clumsily. Long, oddly graceful arms, with fingers capable of tool use and intricate finger gestures, as some of them are accomplished magicians.They certainly have bony structures in their bodies, as they not only have spines, shoulders, elbows and the like, but also sharp claws.

As it seems unlikely that a bipedal humanoid would evolve naturally underwater, they are presumed to be magically created or altered, perhaps a faerie race that was cursed to live apart from others, or who took refuge in the water as their original habitat was destroyed. There are even those who presume them to be analogous to werewolves in hybrid beast-form, but with the 'human' part instead some form of fey creature and the beast an unknown piscine predator from their home world, which happens to resemble sharks and barracudas in some ways.

Complicating analysis is the fact that even relatively informed sources available to the PCs are uncertain how many supernatural aquatic species exist and whether individuals that display squid-like or mammalian characteristics are examples of individual variation or a different species altogether from the piscine humanoids.

Well, one PC does have a rather unique familiarity with the Nommo, a mammalian aquatic fey species with some seal-like characteristics and he claims unequvocally that the Nommo and the Invisible Residents near Rio are completely different species and not even remotely friendly with each other. However, he bases this on unreliable eyewitness accounts of the Rio aquatic humanoids, as he has as yet not encountered one of them.

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Originally Posted by lwcamp View Post
Also, as far as weaponizing sonar goes - if you can focus the sonar beam to the point of producing cavitation at the target, gas-tissue interfaces become moot and the cavitation bubbles will just tear the target apart. But getting sonar to this point will probably require some R&D (not necessarily getting sonar to produce cavitation - it does this all too easily, and is bad for detection so the engineers want to avoid it. But rather the ability to produce cavitation at a desired point far from the emitter, and also the focusing and targeting of the beams).

Luke
Are we talking about writing new software and possibly tinkering with existing sonar arrays (easily possible) or would the Brazilian Navy need to develop their own sonar arrays instead of the imported ones they use in real life?
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Old 05-23-2019, 02:11 AM   #135
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Are we talking about writing new software and possibly tinkering with existing sonar arrays (easily possible) or would the Brazilian Navy need to develop their own sonar arrays instead of the imported ones they use in real life?
Well, if the latter, I researched a bit and the navy has tested its own 100% homemade passive sonar making a big hidrophone and claims

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CF Barreira, in charge of the Institute's Acoustic Systems Group and responsible for the project, pointed out that the test demonstrated IPqM's ability to master the entire technological cycle of a passive sonar system, "The tests performed used systems and algorithms developed by IPqM, from the analog signal of the hydrophones to the analysis screens by the sonar operators, with analysis, monitoring and classification tools, which comprise the domain of knowledge necessary for the design of modern sonar systems.
It is made by a company called Omnisys engenharia, they got 20 million reais to modernise their facilities to become capable of producing 100% brazilian made sonar. They are a subsidiary of the Thales Group.


Which reminds me that I have seen several names for private security services worth mentioning

Drako
Protectors
Safeguard
Security Aliance
Águia Vigilância
Cruzada Segurança
Shield Segurança
Defense Segurança
TRUST Segurança
Locked Segurança e Portaria
Techforce Segurança e Portaria
Proseg Segurança e Portaria

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Old 05-23-2019, 12:52 PM   #136
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Default Sonar and Security

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Originally Posted by D10 View Post
Well, if the latter, I researched a bit and the navy has tested its own 100% homemade passive sonar making a big hidrophone and claims

It is made by a company called Omnisys engenharia, they got 20 million reais to modernise their facilities to become capable of producing 100% brazilian made sonar. They are a subsidiary of the Thales Group.
Ah, I see.

We, of course, want an exotic variation on active sonar. Which is presumably on the agenda for Omnisys, albeit not yet ready in the real world. In-setting, of course, Omnisys or another company under Thales Grouo might well have added adjustments to the existing sonar arrays and be in the proccess of building dual-purpose sensors/weapon system sonar arrays today.

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Which reminds me that I have seen several names for private security services worth mentioning

Drako
Protectors
Safeguard
Security Aliance
Águia Vigilância
Cruzada Segurança
Shield Segurança
Defense Segurança
TRUST Segurança
Locked Segurança e Portaria
Techforce Segurança e Portaria
Proseg Segurança e Portaria
Are these real companies or your suggestions for names?

In the first case, can you tell me more about them and why they would be suitable front companies for extralegal counter-supernatural work?

If the latter, do you have any preferences for which police department or government agency uses which names for front companies for monster hunters operating outside of their normal duties or jurisdictions?
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Old 05-24-2019, 09:14 AM   #137
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Default Re: Sonar and Security

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Ah, I see.

We, of course, want an exotic variation on active sonar. Which is presumably on the agenda for Omnisys, albeit not yet ready in the real world. In-setting, of course, Omnisys or another company under Thales Grouo might well have added adjustments to the existing sonar arrays and be in the proccess of building dual-purpose sensors/weapon system sonar arrays today.


Are these real companies or your suggestions for names?

In the first case, can you tell me more about them and why they would be suitable front companies for extralegal counter-supernatural work?

If the latter, do you have any preferences for which police department or government agency uses which names for front companies for monster hunters operating outside of their normal duties or jurisdictions?
Some are real names like Drako and some are suggestions I found. And I think the Military Police are most likely to use private security as front for monster hunters. The MP are likely to have militia connections either directly or through private contractor proxies who would do the actual monster hunting, most likely.

Also concerning one of your questions earlier, it is common for military police to moonlight as private security. Some take a darker route and join militias that fight off drug-gangs but usually end up replacing them with a mafia of their own

Last edited by D10; 05-24-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 05-27-2019, 06:34 PM   #138
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Default Police Militias

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Originally Posted by D10 View Post
Some are real names like Drako and some are suggestions I found. And I think the Military Police are most likely to use private security as front for monster hunters. The MP are likely to have militia connections either directly or through private contractor proxies who would do the actual monster hunting, most likely.

Also concerning one of your questions earlier, it is common for military police to moonlight as private security. Some take a darker route and join militias that fight off drug-gangs but usually end up replacing them with a mafia of their own
Yes, police militias were the first major monster hunting groups in Brazil as I envision it and although generals, colonels and intelligence chiefs have by now established an informal network to coordinate counter-supernatural efforts, the local leaders of Rio's police militias still often operate autonomously and without informing anyone else.

As long as the local police militias seem to be still on the side of 'humanity' and not 'o diabo', the senior figures who make up the anti-supernatural Deep State in Brazil are willing to accept a great deal of criminal behaviour and corruption from their ostensibly allies, because, after all, they are fighting a war for the survival of human society. When you are convinced that the other side are literal devils, you can accept almost any sin from those who are willing to fight on your side, as long as they hate the other side enough.
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Old 05-27-2019, 07:20 PM   #139
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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Even with cavitating bullets, maximum range underwater is unlikely to reach even 100 meters, more probably half that, so there are probably sensors that could give enough resolution at those ranges for targeting purposes. Of course, aiming by composite sonar picture gathered by all arrays on board would probably be preferred, but a redundant secondary targeting sensor housed in the turret itself seems reasonable, given that there is a strong correlation between frequent equipment failures and hostile encounters.
For that a CCTV mounted in the turret, bore-sighted with the gun would do. Add a spotlight for deep/night work.
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Old 05-28-2019, 06:26 PM   #140
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Default Re: Navy Submarines and the Invisible Residents

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For that a CCTV mounted in the turret, bore-sighted with the gun would do. Add a spotlight for deep/night work.
That sounds workable. Whatever camera equipment is used for underwater cinematography, possibly with light amplification of some sort. Also, spotlights illuminating comparatively tiny areas of a vast oppressive darkness at the bottom of the ocean as a submarine investigates a mysterious wreck is very evocative.
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