Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > The Fantasy Trip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-25-2020, 05:38 PM   #1
kommisar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Default Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Option q states "bend over (not moving) ... and pick up and ready a dropped weapon (melee p. 7)

Now under facing it says "A figure ...bending over to pick up a weapon, is considered to face "rear" in all six directions; it has no front" (melee p. 9).

When does this facing effect start? When does it end?

I assume if you explicitly choose option q this status happens immediately. However, most experienced players will choose some other option, not move and then switch to option q after movement thereby reducing the time that one is bent over.

Now when does the status end?

1) Immediately upon the player choosing a new option in the next turn?

2) When the player takes it action during turn (adj dx)

3) At the end of combat (analogous to the stand up option)

I am thinking it is best to use option 1 above so that even if the player changes option, they still will potentially be bent over when the other side gets to move if they have lost initiative and the other side elects to move first.

Any thoughts?
__________________
Character points are cheap when you are the GM.
kommisar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-25-2020, 06:46 PM   #2
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

  1. Bend over at their turn to move.
  2. Grab the weapon and have it in hand at their turn to act.
  3. Stand up at the end of the turn.
If they don't choose to bend over during movement then they pick nothing off the ground this turn.
__________________
-HJC

Last edited by hcobb; 05-25-2020 at 08:16 PM.
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2020, 06:37 AM   #3
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
  1. Bend over at their turn to move.
  2. Grab the weapon and have it in hand at their turn to act.
  3. Stand up at the end of the turn.
If they don't choose to bend over during movement then they pick nothing off the ground this turn.

I never thought about this before but requiring the "bend over" during movement makes the "Drop Weapon" spell more effective. That is, if your wizard has a higher DX than your target, he cannot just pick the weapon back up that turn and potentially looses an action round.
Axly Suregrip is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-26-2020, 10:10 PM   #4
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
I never thought about this before but requiring the "bend over" during movement makes the "Drop Weapon" spell more effective. That is, if your wizard has a higher DX than your target, he cannot just pick the weapon back up that turn and potentially looses an action round.
Could he not? Can't he do this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by kommisar View Post
... However, most experienced players will choose some other option, not move and then switch to option q after movement thereby reducing the time that one is bent over.
?
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 04:51 AM   #5
hcobb
 
hcobb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

All other posture changes occur either during movement or at the end of all actions.
__________________
-HJC
hcobb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 12:47 PM   #6
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Not if using the ability to change options during the Action phase. For example, the Drop action was specifically called out in the original rules as available to change to by anyone who had moved 1/2 MA or less.

Is there anything that says a figure can't change their action to Pick Up Dropped Weapon?
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 06:35 PM   #7
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

I don't believe this option is available at all if moving 1/2 MA.

Pick Up Dropped Weapon is another of those options rendered "pesky" by the division of options available presented/sorted by Engagement status. It occurs as option (q) in current ITL and Melee, which is under the heading of options available to Engaged figures.

But if a figure can spend its turn bent over and picking up a weapon while adjacent enemies on all sides are whacking away at it with swords and axes (and all at +4 DX on top of it), then surely, surely a Disengaged figure can do the same thing while no one is around and bothering it! I sincerely doubt anyone has ever thought otherwise, RAW or not. This is just another artifact of the options list format, the presentation of choices by engagement status; in this format duplicate listings of options that are available under both Disengaged and Engaged would have been helpful, but were probably left out because the goal was to get the list to fit on a single page.

But then, how far can a figure move, if any, and still use Pick Up Dropped Weapon on the same turn?

The clue comes from the options list in Advanced Melee, where options are presented in a distance-moved format.

Here Pick Up Dropped Weapon is given as option (g), and falls under actions that can be taken after standing still, shifting. or moving 1 hex.

So that seems to be the answer then. Move up to 1 hex (if Disengaged) or less (if Engaged) and take the action.

But there's still a problem! Melee and ITL clearly say you take (q) while not moving!

While I'd like to allow the 1 hex move as per AM, it's clearly not in the current RAW that way, and becomes a judgement call by the GM. And as a closer reading reveals, a figure may already pick up a weapon from an adjacent hex without moving. This makes the need to move a hex actually superfluous. It might now be overly generous to let the figure move or shift 1 hex because that would let them reach a weapon that started two hexes away, and that sounds wrong.

Back to the original point, there is no precedent in the rules, new or old, for ever moving more than one hex and taking the Pick Up Dropped Weapon option. Under the current wording, even moving one hex is unnecessary. There is in AM under Special Options the attempt to scoop up an item as you move through its hex, but that's a separate matter, and not automatically successful like option (q) because it requires a DX roll.
__________________
"I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."

Last edited by Steve Plambeck; 05-27-2020 at 11:01 PM.
Steve Plambeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-27-2020, 11:49 PM   #8
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
...
But if a figure can spend its turn bent over and picking up a weapon while adjacent enemies on all sides are whacking away at it with swords and axes (and all at +4 DX on top of it), then surely, surely a Disengaged figure can do the same thing while no one is around and bothering it! ...
Yes, as described in other rules. Using the Engaged option (q) is only the most restrictive way to pick a weapon up off the ground. It's restricted because the figure is presumed to be engaged, and defines how hard it is to pick up a weapon while engaged which, coincidentally, also restricts movement to 1 (or 0 for option (q)).

Disengaged option (e) lets a figure move up to 2 hexes and pick up a weapon from an adjacent hex. Presumably, as long as you don't become engaged.

And there's more. Under "Actions During Movement" on ITL p.104, it appears you can pick up a weapon off the ground while moving, even running (so it would seem, ANY option, while disengaged) during the movement phase, by either spending 3 MA or making a 3/DX roll.
Skarg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 12:21 AM   #9
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
Disengaged option (e) lets a figure move up to 2 hexes and pick up a weapon from an adjacent hex. Presumably, as long as you don't become engaged.
Just realized I left that out, and dropped in quick to fix it before anyone noticed -- hahaha. You're fast on the draw Skarg!

So of course one can move up to 2 hexes and pick up a dropped weapon using (e), if Disengaged. That figure doesn't even need to invoke (q). But an Engaged figure would have to use (q). And as it's legal to change from (e) to (q) then that figure under that circumstance would indeed get away with the 2 hexes moved before it became Engaged, and still get to bend over.

My other oversight was to paraphrase scooping up a weapon on the run as having come from "Special Options" in AM, when in fact it comes from "Actions During Movement", which is identical to the same paragraph in present ITL. The funny thing is SJ does repeat and detail picking up dropped weapons under that "Special Options" section as an option "IV.b."

So I could have just quoted that, and skipped writing anything else at all :)
__________________
"I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."
Steve Plambeck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-28-2020, 08:43 AM   #10
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Picking up a dropped weapon while engaged - when do you stand up?

ITL page 103 has all the engaged options. Each as this format: movement phase action, comma, combat phase action. Sometimes if it needs more details it departs from this structure but still always lists the movement phase details before the combat phase details.

Option (q) has this before the comma: "Bend over" (not moving),

It mentions "Bend over" before even stating "not moving". While it is not explicit, I take this to mean that the bend over is a movement phase action just by the structure of the sentence.

Also from a fairness perspective, why should a lower DX person have a safer time retrieving a dropped weapon? That is, if using the method where the fighter keeps his options without having to first bend over during movement:
- If a high DX person retrieves, then he is bending over for the rest of his turn for all lower DX foes to strike him.
- If a low DX person retrieves, then he is bending over after all his quicker foes have already went, thus can safely pick up his weapon.
Axly Suregrip is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.