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Old 01-16-2022, 09:33 PM   #21
Rasputin
 
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by JulianLW View Post
Dude. The damage table is literally exactly the same as the one that appeared in Man to Man back in 1985.
Yeah, this seems more like not realizing that if someone is going to make the damage table advance in damage very fast that players are going to make characters that take advantage of this. The problem is the damage table. Making the swing bonus be +2 per die of thrust damage (which can be converted back into dice with +4=+1d) fixes this at the ST levels of PCs (e.g., swing with ST 15 drops from 2d+1 to 2d-1 with this fix, dropping average damage by two points).
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Old 01-17-2022, 07:42 AM   #22
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

At a game design level the two main armor models in RPGs are the "get around it" model and the "get through it" model. DFRPG (thru GURPS) has lots of "get around it" options but the core mechanic/assumption is "get through it," so weapons and armor are balanced against that.

They are also balanced against low cinematic amounts of ST and skill. A ST12 skill 12 fighter with a broadsword will cut through mail regularly and plate quite often.

This is not at all realistic of course, but allows ST12 PCs with swords to fight mail armored soldiers without resorting to hit locations, chinks, and other stuff. As a GURPS nerd, that other stuff is interesting to me, but many players already find the attack/defense/damage/DR/damage type cycle of basic GURPS combat too complicated already.

Since this is a matter of approachability, it is unlikely to change in the core mechanics anytime soon. If you want realistic armor resistance vs. penetration you need to use one of the variant armor models floating around out there (edge protection and armor as dice are popular) or roll your own.

The DFRPG example characters suffers from this with added "Damage is easier to increase than DR for most PCs" and "good armor in DFRPG is very expensive and PCs start out with limited funds" as others have noted.
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Old 01-17-2022, 01:15 PM   #23
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Infornific View Post
6. Enhance armor vs cutting weapons. I've seen suggestions like doubling DR vs swing attacks or the idea of edge protection. There was also Cole's suggestion of simply toning down Swing damage.
The optional edge protection rule from GURPS Low-Tech is that a cutting weapon has to exceed twice the DR of armor for it to penetrate and get the 1.5x cutting injury modifier, and allow any venom on the blade to take effect. If it does more than DR, but not more than 2xDR, the blow didn't cut through the armor. It does 'blunt trauma' which counts as crushing damage (1x injury modifier) instead, and venom doesn't reach the target's skin or bloodstream. This only applies to armor, not the natural DR of monsters, so it wouldn't completely nerf the abilities that strong, weapon master delvers paid for.

I agree with others that to get closer to 'realistic' damage in DFRPG, eliminating Weapon Master (or modifying it to remove the damage bonus) and limiting high levels of ST and Striking ST would be the simplest approach.
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Old 01-17-2022, 01:30 PM   #24
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
The optional edge protection rule from GURPS Low-Tech is that a cutting weapon has to exceed twice the DR of armor for it to penetrate and get the 1.5x cutting injury modifier, and allow any venom on the blade to take effect. If it does more than DR, but not more than 2xDR, the blow didn't cut through the armor. It does 'blunt trauma' which counts as crushing damage (1x injury modifier) instead, and venom doesn't reach the target's skin or bloodstream. This only applies to armor, not the natural DR of monsters, so it wouldn't completely nerf the abilities that strong, weapon master delvers paid for.

I agree with others that to get closer to 'realistic' damage in DFRPG, eliminating Weapon Master (or modifying it to remove the damage bonus) and limiting high levels of ST and Striking ST would be the simplest approach.
Oh that's great, somehow I missed that. Limit bodkin arrows (and other piercing weapons if using LTC2) to piercing mail and you probably largely solve the issues with seemingly too-low armor values.
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Old 01-18-2022, 12:07 AM   #25
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
The swing/thrust dynamic was actually a choice.
Does this mean that normally there really isn't a choice, because swing damage is so much more? And your house rule makes them both viable? Sounds cool.


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(1) there was a TBaM house rule in play as well granting Imbue 2 that helped a ton here too.
So you gave the Martial Artist Imbue 2 for free?

What is TBaM?
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Old 01-18-2022, 01:45 AM   #26
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Magic_Octopus View Post
Does this mean that normally there really isn't a choice, because swing damage is so much more?
There's a choice: you can swing, or you can stab them in the eye. A 'normal' stab isn't worth considering at high ST, though.
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Old 01-18-2022, 05:35 AM   #27
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Mr_Sandman View Post
The optional edge protection rule from GURPS Low-Tech is that a cutting weapon has to exceed twice the DR of armor for it to penetrate and get the 1.5x cutting injury modifier, and allow any venom on the blade to take effect. If it does more than DR, but not more than 2xDR, the blow didn't cut through the armor. It does 'blunt trauma' which counts as crushing damage (1x injury modifier) instead, and venom doesn't reach the target's skin or bloodstream.
There are (at least) two versions of the "edges deal crushing damage if they don't penetrate armor" model floating around. For the nerds who discuss such things, here's a bunch of blather on effects and differences:

===

The rule noted above is the optional rule on Low-Tech p. 102 under "Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons". The rule makes no mention of the term "edge protection" and unfortunately has no name of its own, so I'll call it "BTEW" here.

It works as described above, and is an all-or-nothing model where cutting damage is concerned: the damage that exceeds DR is all crushing, or (if high enough) all cutting.

===

For an older take, there's the original (??) use of the term "Edge Protection" (EP) in this blog article of mine (updated for 4e). It's similar to the Low-Tech take, but differs here:
  • Instead of setting "DR > damage ≥ 2xDR" as the range over which cutting edges deliver crushing damage, it sets points of EP as that range. (So it creates a second armor stat, though it also does away with existing split DR scores and GURPS' flexible armor/blunt trauma rules.)
  • Edged damage penetrating armor inflicts crushing and edged damage, not either-or. (E.g., if a 12-point sword blow hits DR 5 EP 3 armor, the first 3 hits that get past DR 5 are crushing damage; the remaining 4 are cutting damage.)

I consider this a more realistic model than the all-or-nothing BTEW, but the latter does a similar job with nice simplicity!

===

For anyone wanting to further hack at those:
  • BTEW addresses only cutting damage, but I don't see why you couldn't apply it to impaling and piercing damage if you wanted. (Or, conversely, rule that EP affects only cutting damage if you want that effect.)
  • Edge Protection lets you set points of EP freely; different combinations of DR & EP model level of protection as well as rigidity vs flexibility. BTEW uses its fixed "DR x 2" threshold for penetration. But you could replace BTEW's "x2" with other multipliers if you like, to get fiddly with armor types, or weapon-type X vs armor-type Y effects, etc.

===

So... for DFRPG? For anyone not pleased with swords hewing through plate, give BTEW a try.

Or give Edge Protection a try. (For DFRPG, go with really simple stats: set EP equal to DR. (For those tricky armors with split DR, I'd recommend this: Set DR vs all attacks to the lower DR. Set EP to (higher DRx2 - lower DR).)

Either variant of edge protection (I'll go no-caps here to refer to these collectively) will do a lot toward stopping Yvor and friends from slicing through armor. And either variant has this big appeal: you can tweak edge protection far more flexibly than DR without making armor over- or under-powered.

You can have some special penetrating attack that cuts edge protection (but not DR) down to near nothing; it'll have a very real effect in play yet not make a mockery of armor. Or, in the other direction, you can give armor crazy high edge protection vs some or all attacks, even impenetrable infinite edge protection; this has a real effect in play but doesn't nerf combat. (The smug "my magic mail can never be pierced" guy can still get battered to a pulp by swords.)

===

That said...

While I've played with Edge Protection aplenty over the years, I haven't used it or BTEW for DFRPG. For a simple reason: If there's one genre where I'm fine with letting swords unrealistically zing through armor, as seen in so many fantasy (and even "historical") movies, it's dungeon fantasy.

Nothing wrong with experimenting, though. If anyone tries it out DFRPG with more realistic armor rules, let the forum hear about it!
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Last edited by tbone; 01-18-2022 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:16 AM   #28
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by Magic_Octopus View Post
Does this mean that normally there really isn't a choice, because swing damage is so much more? And your house rule makes them both viable? Sounds cool.
For the record, I was a player in this game.

And yeah, there are few downsides to swing vs thrust unless the GM is really big on making rulings about confined spaces. So the swing/thrust becomes pretty much a have/have-not chasm, where those confined to predominantly thrust damage are the ones hoping they don't have to be in front-line combat. To the point that "anything other than an edged rapier is for chumps" was heard frequently during chargen and discussion of swashbucklers and swords.

Not all tables are this way, etc. But the gulf between those with swung weapons and those without is really big.




Quote:
So you gave the Martial Artist Imbue 2 for free?

What is TBaM?
TBaM is Trained by a Master; the GM rolled Imbue 2 into it. So not "for free," but the cost of Trained by a Master was deemed a bit to high just as a gateway to having Chi skills, and the abilities (um) granted by Imbue were really thematically appropriate.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:18 AM   #29
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Originally Posted by tbone View Post
For an older take, there's the original (??) use of the term "Edge Protection" (EP) in this blog article of mine (updated for 4e). It's similar to the Low-Tech take, but differs here:
Note this link is still giving a 404 error.
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Old 01-18-2022, 07:24 AM   #30
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Default Re: Damage is too high in this game.

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Note this link is still giving a 404 error.
Dumb error on my part: I put an unwelcome slash at the end of the URL. Fixed now. Thanks for letting me know!

(If, for whatever reason it still doesn't work for anyone, an alternate URL: https://www.gamesdiner.com/edge-prot...-for-gurps-4e/ )
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