01-16-2022, 09:33 PM | #21 |
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
Yeah, this seems more like not realizing that if someone is going to make the damage table advance in damage very fast that players are going to make characters that take advantage of this. The problem is the damage table. Making the swing bonus be +2 per die of thrust damage (which can be converted back into dice with +4=+1d) fixes this at the ST levels of PCs (e.g., swing with ST 15 drops from 2d+1 to 2d-1 with this fix, dropping average damage by two points).
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01-17-2022, 07:42 AM | #22 |
Join Date: Jan 2006
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
At a game design level the two main armor models in RPGs are the "get around it" model and the "get through it" model. DFRPG (thru GURPS) has lots of "get around it" options but the core mechanic/assumption is "get through it," so weapons and armor are balanced against that.
They are also balanced against low cinematic amounts of ST and skill. A ST12 skill 12 fighter with a broadsword will cut through mail regularly and plate quite often. This is not at all realistic of course, but allows ST12 PCs with swords to fight mail armored soldiers without resorting to hit locations, chinks, and other stuff. As a GURPS nerd, that other stuff is interesting to me, but many players already find the attack/defense/damage/DR/damage type cycle of basic GURPS combat too complicated already. Since this is a matter of approachability, it is unlikely to change in the core mechanics anytime soon. If you want realistic armor resistance vs. penetration you need to use one of the variant armor models floating around out there (edge protection and armor as dice are popular) or roll your own. The DFRPG example characters suffers from this with added "Damage is easier to increase than DR for most PCs" and "good armor in DFRPG is very expensive and PCs start out with limited funds" as others have noted. |
01-17-2022, 01:15 PM | #23 | |
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: L.I., NY
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
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I agree with others that to get closer to 'realistic' damage in DFRPG, eliminating Weapon Master (or modifying it to remove the damage bonus) and limiting high levels of ST and Striking ST would be the simplest approach. |
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01-17-2022, 01:30 PM | #24 | |
Join Date: May 2010
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
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Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name. |
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01-18-2022, 12:07 AM | #25 | |
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
Does this mean that normally there really isn't a choice, because swing damage is so much more? And your house rule makes them both viable? Sounds cool.
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What is TBaM? |
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01-18-2022, 01:45 AM | #26 |
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Berkeley, CA
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
There's a choice: you can swing, or you can stab them in the eye. A 'normal' stab isn't worth considering at high ST, though.
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01-18-2022, 05:35 AM | #27 | |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
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=== The rule noted above is the optional rule on Low-Tech p. 102 under "Blunt Trauma and Edged Weapons". The rule makes no mention of the term "edge protection" and unfortunately has no name of its own, so I'll call it "BTEW" here. It works as described above, and is an all-or-nothing model where cutting damage is concerned: the damage that exceeds DR is all crushing, or (if high enough) all cutting. === For an older take, there's the original (??) use of the term "Edge Protection" (EP) in this blog article of mine (updated for 4e). It's similar to the Low-Tech take, but differs here:
I consider this a more realistic model than the all-or-nothing BTEW, but the latter does a similar job with nice simplicity! === For anyone wanting to further hack at those:
=== So... for DFRPG? For anyone not pleased with swords hewing through plate, give BTEW a try. Or give Edge Protection a try. (For DFRPG, go with really simple stats: set EP equal to DR. (For those tricky armors with split DR, I'd recommend this: Set DR vs all attacks to the lower DR. Set EP to (higher DRx2 - lower DR).) Either variant of edge protection (I'll go no-caps here to refer to these collectively) will do a lot toward stopping Yvor and friends from slicing through armor. And either variant has this big appeal: you can tweak edge protection far more flexibly than DR without making armor over- or under-powered. You can have some special penetrating attack that cuts edge protection (but not DR) down to near nothing; it'll have a very real effect in play yet not make a mockery of armor. Or, in the other direction, you can give armor crazy high edge protection vs some or all attacks, even impenetrable infinite edge protection; this has a real effect in play but doesn't nerf combat. (The smug "my magic mail can never be pierced" guy can still get battered to a pulp by swords.) === That said... While I've played with Edge Protection aplenty over the years, I haven't used it or BTEW for DFRPG. For a simple reason: If there's one genre where I'm fine with letting swords unrealistically zing through armor, as seen in so many fantasy (and even "historical") movies, it's dungeon fantasy. Nothing wrong with experimenting, though. If anyone tries it out DFRPG with more realistic armor rules, let the forum hear about it!
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T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) Last edited by tbone; 01-18-2022 at 06:45 PM. |
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01-18-2022, 07:16 AM | #28 | ||
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
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And yeah, there are few downsides to swing vs thrust unless the GM is really big on making rulings about confined spaces. So the swing/thrust becomes pretty much a have/have-not chasm, where those confined to predominantly thrust damage are the ones hoping they don't have to be in front-line combat. To the point that "anything other than an edged rapier is for chumps" was heard frequently during chargen and discussion of swashbucklers and swords. Not all tables are this way, etc. But the gulf between those with swung weapons and those without is really big. Quote:
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01-18-2022, 07:18 AM | #29 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
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My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon |
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01-18-2022, 07:24 AM | #30 |
Join Date: Aug 2004
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Re: Damage is too high in this game.
Dumb error on my part: I put an unwelcome slash at the end of the URL. Fixed now. Thanks for letting me know!
(If, for whatever reason it still doesn't work for anyone, an alternate URL: https://www.gamesdiner.com/edge-prot...-for-gurps-4e/ )
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T Bone GURPS stuff and more at the Games Diner: http://www.gamesdiner.com Twitter: @Gamesdiner | RSS: here ⬅︎ Updated RSS link | This forum: Site updates thread (occasionally updated) (Latest goods on site: GLAIVE Mini levels up to v2.4. Update to melee weapon design tool, with more example weapons and commentary.) |
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