Eternaly extended buff in RPM

[qchap]

Hello! My playgroup wants to try the RPM system soon, it'll be first time for us. The system seems really great and fun, but some things are confusing. Thus, I have some questions.
Sorry if my English is bad.

First question. Say, I'd like to have some buff on me, like DR (like in Ghost Shirt spell), and I'd like to have it availible in every battle. First thought was casting it as conditional, charm or something like that.
But now I got an idea that I could just cast the buff on myself with 1 day duration and then I could have a morning routine to extend it, by using just a few points of energy, using the rules in After Casting. It would become eternal buff, I just have to spend no more then a minute every morning. Could I do it?
At first, it doesn't seem like a realy big deal, but then think that you could have several such buffs, wich seems like a problem.

Second question. Let's assume we are using Decanic Trappings, and I often cast spells with path of Energy, which has the Sahu Decan. Could I just once buy an expansive opal amulet (which would fit for 5DP for Sahu) and than have a -5% off from every Energy spell I cast, while wearing it?
If I'd do it for all four Decans, it'd be net -20% to all Energy spells! And if i'd do such a thing to path of Magic Decans, I'd get a discount for every conditional spell (assuming no paths of those spells are lower then path of Magic)?
Seems like a too good deal for one money investment. I would just become a standard across all mages.

Third question. I kinda answered it myself, but fix me if I'm wrong.
One mage could not give another one his ER with voluntary sacrifice, right? I couldn't find a rule that he can anywhere. If he could, I can imagine it becoming a problem.
I also thought that one mage could perfome some Control Magic ritual, which could give his ER to another caster. But soon I realised that the recieved ER would be useless because of the third rule of Stacking Spells, am I right? Or, maybe, according to the same rule, ER could not be transfered at all.

I'd be glad to see your answers, thanks!

[qchap]

One thing I forgot to state. I'm interested in how RAW (or, at least, most of the community) deals with the stated questions. Of course I know that the GM can fix anything as he sees appropriate.

[Varyon]

1) You are correct about keeping the spell going indefinitely. For the possible issues, keep in mind you can only have one each of a given Greater or Lesser effect in play at a time. So, Ghost Shirt gives you Greater Control Energy - that means while it's in play, you cannot have any other buffs that involve Greater Control Energy.

2) Yep. Note you've spend more than two months' income for a job at your Wealth level on such ritual items, which is more than 20% of your Starting Wealth at TL 12, and goes up as TL goes down (at TL 8, two month's income is 26% of Starting Wealth; at TL 3, it's 140%). Note RAW this only works if Path of Magic is your lowest Path skill for the ritual in question. Personally, I don't think I'd let Path of Magic Decans contribute if the only Path of Magic contribution is the conditional spell "wrapper."

3) RAW, no, I don't think a mage can contribute ER unless he's actually involved in casting the spell. Personally, I see no real issues with it.

[qchap]

Originally Posted by Varyon

1) You are correct about keeping the spell going indefinitely. For the possible issues, keep in mind you can only have one each of a given Greater or Lesser effect in play at a time. So, Ghost Shirt gives you Greater Control Energy - that means while it's in play, you cannot have any other buffs that involve Greater Control Energy.

Yes,I remember about stacking rules, but you still could have about 3-4 useful buffs with different effects, which sounds like really good deal, because it doesn't restrict you from anything else (you still could cast Greater Control Energy spells, just not on yourself). And I can imagin a playgroup of mages with different paths, each casting 3-4 buffs on themselves AND each friend, resulting in 10-15 buffs on each player. If they stay together everyday, it'll last indefinitely. Seems like a problem a GM should solve.
But thanks for confirming that it works RAW!

Originally Posted by Varyon

2) Yep. Note you've spend more than two months' income for a job at your Wealth level on such ritual items, which is more than 20% of your Starting Wealth at TL 12, and goes up as TL goes down (at TL 8, two month's income is 26% of Starting Wealth; at TL 3, it's 140%).

Signature Gear gives up to 50% of Starting Wealth in items just for one point, if you could justify it. So, it'll become 20% discount for one character point at TL 8. But I see your point, thanks. Again, GM should probably just disallow such a Signature Gear.

Originally Posted by Varyon

2) Note RAW this only works if Path of Magic is your lowest Path skill for the ritual in question. Personally, I don't think I'd let Path of Magic Decans contribute if the only Path of Magic contribution is the conditional spell "wrapper."

Yes, I'm aware that Path of Magic must be lowest, so the case is just for the best of your Paths, but nonetheless.

I also think that good "counter" would be forbidding to use Decans from the "wrapper" (including sense effects for intelligent triggers). You helped to convince me in this, thanks!

Originally Posted by Varyon

3) RAW, no, I don't think a mage can contribute ER unless he's actually involved in casting the spell. Personally, I see no real issues with it.

It's good, thanks!

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by qchap

Yes,I remember about stacking rules, but you still could have about 3-4 useful buffs with different effects, which sounds like really good deal, because it doesn't restrict you from anything else (you still could cast Greater Control Energy spells, just not on yourself). And I can imagin a playgroup of mages with different paths, each casting 3-4 buffs on themselves AND each friend, resulting in 10-15 buffs on each player. If they stay together everyday, it'll last indefinitely. Seems like a problem a GM should solve.
But thanks for confirming that it works RAW!

One possible solution is for OpFor (Opposing Force - that is, the enemy - if you're unfamiliar with that term) to have Dispel Magic (Lesser Destroy Magic; inherent modifiers of Metamagic and Area Effect) as a Charm or Conditional Spell. So long as it has more energy in Metamagic than the buffing spell it targets has in total, it eliminates it - and with Area Effect, it targets all spells in its area, and assesses the effects individually. If you also have OpFor buff up their forces, the PC's may opt to carry such Charms as well.

A more house-ruley option would be to have buffs interfere with magic in some way. Maybe active buffs (either those on you, or those you've cast) actually count toward the number of conditional spells you have in play. Maybe their Path is considered to be involved in any spell you cast (not necessarily "Ghost Shirt adds Greater Control Energy to all rituals," but more "treat all spells as though Path of Energy were involved, for purposes of determining which Path skill to use and if there are any penalties for 3+ Paths). Maybe having more than your Safe Threshold worth of energy on you in buffs at a time causes a penalty to rolls to gather magic. Maybe having a specific effect on you prevents you from using spells/rituals with that effect (unless you put more energy into the new spell than the buff has in it, in which case you cast the spell but the buff is removed, as it's been "overwritten" by the new spell). Maybe Critical Failures disrupt any buffs you have on you, removing them and contributing a portion of their energy to determining the effects of the CritFail.

There's also the fact that needing to renew 10-15 spells on each character every day means you'll probably end up with a Critical Failure in short order, which could end poorly (particularly if using that last option, above). With 4 characters, then even if you can restore the Duration with only one successful Gathering roll, that's 40-60 rolls each day. Not only is that potentially rather annoying to game out, but even with effective skill 16+ (so you only CritFail on an 18), 40 rolls results in a ~17% chance of suffering at least one CritFail, while 60 rolls results in a ~25% chance of suffering at least one CritFail. That's each day - over a week of adventuring (7 days), that's a ~73% or ~86% chance, respectively, of suffering at least one CritFail.

Originally Posted by qchap

Signature Gear gives up to 50% of Starting Wealth in items just for one point, if you could justify it. So, it'll become 20% discount for one character point at TL 8. But I see your point, thanks. Again, GM should probably just disallow such a Signature Gear.

Honestly, the idea of someone who favors a specific Path having a piece of Signature Gear that is an amulet set with precious stones for each Decan sounds pretty awesome. 20% off for [1] is a bit much, of course, and the TL dependency feels odd (but then, Cost of Living being TL-independent is pretty weird to start with, and that's where the weird Wages vs Starting Income disconnect comes from). Perhaps just make it so that, regardless of TL, you can have a piece of Signature Gear that counts as an Expensive Material (5 DP) for a single Decan for [1]. So, to cover all 4 Decans of a single Path, you need to spend [4] - and whether these are separate items or just one, is up to you during character creation. I'd also allow you to sacrifice the item (as a Consumable Material, for 10 DP) without actually losing the Signature Gear - rather, you can purchase an identical (or close enough) replacement item (cost set by GM, but I'd honestly go with 50% Starting Wealth), and the plot-protection inherent to Signature Gear transfers to the new item.

Originally Posted by qchap

Yes, I'm aware that Path of Magic must be lowest, so the case is just for the best of your Paths, but nonetheless.

I also think that good "counter" would be forbidding to use Decans from the "wrapper" (including sense effects for intelligent triggers). You helped to convince me in this, thanks!

A more complex option would be, for spells/rituals that use multiple Paths, to average the DP you provide for each Path. You could just have each Path contribute equally (so with 3 Paths, you're looking at 1/3 each), have the contribution scale with the Effects (with Greater Effects counting double; something that is Greater Create Energy + Lesser Create Matter + Lesser Control Magic would be 2 parts Energy, 1 part Matter, and 1 part Magic, so 1/2, 1/4, 1/4, respectively), have the Inherent Modifiers be divided up into Paths (if the above is a spell that creates a persistent boulder and flings it at the target, relying on collision damage, and has a magic wrapper to be conditional, then the Greater Create Energy and Speed inherent modifiers are Energy; the Lesser Create Matter, Affected Weight, and Duration inherent modifiers are Matter, and only the Lesser Control Magic is Magic), or just have the GM weight things by "feel." Note this will generally make Decanic Trappings less effective for multi-Path spells (going with the second option above, having 20 DP worth of Energy trappings would only give 10 DP, having 20 DP worth of Matter or Magic trappings would only give 5 DP each; to get a full 20 DP, for 20% off, you'd need 20 DP worth of trappings for all the Paths involved).

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by qchap

First question. Say, I'd like to have some buff on me, like DR (like in Ghost Shirt spell), and I'd like to have it availible in every battle. First thought was casting it as conditional, charm or something like that.
But now I got an idea that I could just cast the buff on myself with 1 day duration and then I could have a morning routine to extend it, by using just a few points of energy, using the rules in After Casting. It would become eternal buff, I just have to spend no more then a minute every morning. Could I do it?

Yes. Buffs persistent until they are dispelled or no longer maintained.

Originally Posted by qchap

At first, it doesn't seem like a realy big deal, but then think that you could have several such buffs, wich seems like a problem.

This is a problem. This is why I introduced the Buffing rule for stacking spells. Speaking of which, buffs still have to follow the rules for stacking spells so it's not as great or terrible as you'd think at first. You could be under the effects of a Ghost Shirt spell, but then you cannot have another Greater Control Energy effect up or the new spells fizzles.

Originally Posted by qchap

Second question. Let's assume we are using Decanic Trappings, and I often cast spells with path of Energy, which has the Sahu Decan. Could I just once buy an expansive opal amulet (which would fit for 5DP for Sahu) and than have a -5% off from every Energy spell I cast, while wearing it?
If I'd do it for all four Decans, it'd be net -20% to all Energy spells! And if i'd do such a thing to path of Magic Decans, I'd get a discount for every conditional spell (assuming no paths of those spells are lower then path of Magic)?
Seems like a too good deal for one money investment. I would just become a standard across all mages.

That's how traditional trappings work, yes. That's why the GM has to be careful. I personally don't use Traditional Trappings with the Decanic Modifiers for much the same reason. Instead I use magical components from DF19 and foci from Pyramid #3/82.

Originally Posted by qchap

Third question. I kinda answered it myself, but fix me if I'm wrong.
One mage could not give another one his ER with voluntary sacrifice, right? I couldn't find a rule that he can anywhere. If he could, I can imagine it becoming a problem.
I also thought that one mage could perfome some Control Magic ritual, which could give his ER to another caster. But soon I realised that the recieved ER would be useless because of the third rule of Stacking Spells, am I right? Or, maybe, according to the same rule, ER could not be transfered at all.

Yeah, that's fine. It's implicit in the rules. Use the full value.

[qchap]

Thanks for your solutions, seems like it should work!

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

This is a problem. This is why I introduced the Buffing rule for stacking spells.

Buffing Rule? Where's that?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Buffing Rule? Where's that?

p. 22 of DF 19, line number 4.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

p. 22 of DF 19, line number 4.

Aha! There's another reason to add that title to my wishlist.