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Old 10-15-2021, 05:13 AM   #1
kirbwarrior
 
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Default Training someone who wants you dead

It's a pretty common (and honestly silly) trope when there are two people fighting and one is far more skilled to the point that they aren't taking the fight seriously and are even pointing out flaws in the other's fighting style, often when that person is trying to kill them, usually recklessly and emotionally.

What would this look like GURPS? Is there a good skill differential? A rare crit (or even not that rare for skill 16) means that someone who is fighting an opponent who is basically only using All Out Defense will eventually get in at worst a threatening hit even if that opponent has 40+ skill.

Is there another approach? Maybe some sort of contest that can be made that washes over actual combat mechanics?

It's one of those things where I'm not even sure how to try it because I see it failing so easily, so I thought I'd see what everyone's thoughts were here. Thank you ahead of time.
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Old 10-15-2021, 05:41 AM   #2
Sam Baughn
 
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Default Re: Training someone who wants you dead

Luck can be used to force re-rolls of attacks against you.
If the less skilled character is a PC, their player could use the rules from Power-Ups 5 to buy failures and turn critical successes into ordinary successes.
Alternatively, the combat need not actually use the combat rules. If the main purpose is just to add some silly flavour to a conversation, using the quick contest tournament rules from Martial Arts would be entirely appropriate.
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Old 10-15-2021, 06:24 AM   #3
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Alternatively, the combat need not actually use the combat rules. If the main purpose is just to add some silly flavour to a conversation, using the quick contest tournament rules from Martial Arts would be entirely appropriate.
Do you have a page reference for this?
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Old 10-15-2021, 07:37 AM   #4
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Do you have a page reference for this?
Martial Arts, p. 134.
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Old 10-16-2021, 03:45 PM   #5
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Crits are always a risk, but Defensive Feints (MA101) might also be of use here (optionally, your "banter" of critiquing their methods could be part of a Ruse using those rules). For reference, a Defensive Feint penalizes the target's attack roll, rather than defense roll. As an added bonus, this can also make critical hits less likely - if you've got Broadsword-20 and your foe has Broadsword-12, your foe could normally boost his crit chance to maximum (skill 16) with an All Out (Committed) Attack. With you on average causing a -8 to his chance to hit, that's no longer at all the case - indeed, without going All Out your foe has an increased chance to suffer a critical miss!

Alternatively, particularly in a cinematic setting, I wouldn't be opposed to something feint-like serving to reduce - even eliminate - the probability of your foe getting a Critical Success.
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Old 10-16-2021, 05:21 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sam Baughn View Post
Alternatively, the combat need not actually use the combat rules. If the main purpose is just to add some silly flavour to a conversation, using the quick contest tournament rules from Martial Arts would be entirely appropriate.
That sounds nicely applicable, especially changing it so only the one not fighting can take damage. And if the "teacher" actually takes damage, it'll clue them in that their opponent is actually something of a threat.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Crits are always a risk, but Defensive Feints (MA101) might also be of use here (optionally, your "banter" of critiquing their methods could be part of a Ruse using those rules). For reference, a Defensive Feint penalizes the target's attack roll, rather than defense roll. As an added bonus, this can also make critical hits less likely - if you've got Broadsword-20 and your foe has Broadsword-12, your foe could normally boost his crit chance to maximum (skill 16) with an All Out (Committed) Attack. With you on average causing a -8 to his chance to hit, that's no longer at all the case - indeed, without going All Out your foe has an increased chance to suffer a critical miss!

Alternatively, particularly in a cinematic setting, I wouldn't be opposed to something feint-like serving to reduce - even eliminate - the probability of your foe getting a Critical Success.
This sounds really nice for situations where I must use combat rules (for instance, when multiple battles are happening on top of each other) Plus, the idea of using Teaching as a Ruse with the side effect of it counting as helping someone learn makes me smile.
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Old 10-17-2021, 03:25 AM   #7
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Im not clear if your trying to leverage GURPS mechanics to show that even the random crit wont penetrate this defense... in which case
1) dont forget NPCs can have luck and seredipity that can be used to cancel out PC advantages the same way. (IE canceling a crit)
2) a high skill differential absorbs a lot of technique, speed and combo modifiers

If your asking can a random crit penetrate a much higher skill all out defense... GM call (I say yes, but there are caveats).
If your PC has a skill of 17 and your NPC has a skill of 40, first thing I do is reduce them both by 10 (this drops the PC crit chance to only a 3 or 4 if your using the rule of 10 which I do). The intention is that the NPC so clearly outmatch the PC that I would also rule, a 4 is a hit but no critical add on for the PC.
There should always be a chance, even if its a small one. Mistakes can happen, that random stone under someones foot, the flash of light in the eyes at just that moment etc... However if your going to allow skill levels that high you have to let them mean something and that means the PC in this scenario is hopelessly outclassed if they want to meet this PC in a One on One fair fight using that skill to contest.

There are any number of way to handle this, but it really depends on what you are trying to accomplish. No matter what you choose it has to be available to the PCs the same way, if your going to use martial arts game mechanics then it needs to be an equally available option for the NPCs and the PCs. The PCs may have chosen not to pay for luck, but as long as it was available that's their choice. NPCs have a little more latitude because they don't need to be created with the same point cap unless the GM wants it to be that way, but if you are building the NPC to fit a specific narrative then you may need to just grant certain advantages to the character.

Too often I think PCs believe that all these little tricks and rule modifiers are just for them. I have seen more than one shocked face when the NPCs do the same thing back to the PCs, I have had more than one player tell me that it wasn't fair for NPCs to use those rules. As a GM I tend to forget all the little things that are available in the rules, and generally when a PC asks if they can do something cool that is one of those sort of grey area combos I respond with "sure you can, just remember putting it in the world makes it available to everyone". Not because I'm being mean, but because the PCs are reminding the GM of a game mechanic that I haven't bothered with till I keep seeing it in action. So sure, my NPCs will start using it as well.
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Old 10-17-2021, 07:33 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by bocephus View Post
If your PC has a skill of 17 and your NPC has a skill of 40, first thing I do is reduce them both by 10 (this drops the PC crit chance to only a 3 or 4 if your using the rule of 10 which I do). The intention is that the NPC so clearly outmatch the PC that I would also rule, a 4 is a hit but no critical add on for the PC.
With a skill differential that steep, if the NPC isn't interested in attacking, using defensive feints should leave the PC somewhere around skill 0 most of the time. If he does attack, deceptive attacks will put the PC's defenses in the basement of the bell curve, even when targeting eyeslits. I don't think you need further rules to make it more one sided.
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Old 10-17-2021, 02:47 PM   #9
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Consider "Not-so-critical Hits":

Instead of Critical Hits bypassing defenses completely, the adjust the active defense roll in two ways:
1) They penalize the effective defense score by an additional -10 (or to taste).
2) If the effective defense score is less than 3, you don't get to roll the active defense.

This allows hyper-competent martial artists to brush off critical hits like they're nothing, while still shredding through less capable fighters
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Old 10-18-2021, 03:48 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by kirbwarrior View Post
What would this look like GURPS? Is there a good skill differential?
As a cinematic trope, dialogue in combat can be treated as a free action even when it extends well beyond the usual 1 second turn.

That allows combatants to hurl insults, negotiate, offer pro tips on technique, reveal their cunning plans, etc. as part of the scene Without. The. GM. Enforcing. Rules. On. How. Fast. You. Can. Speak. Per. Second.

The real trigger level for critiquing your foe's style while laying the smack down on them isn't actual skill level difference so much as the belief that your foe is so inferior that they can't hurt you. This could be a bad case of Overconfidence, a dangerous Delusion, a nasty OPH ("Plays With His Food.") or actual invulnerability.

In terms of game mechanics, being so well armored that a foe can't hurt you without a critical hit or having a 10+ point skill level difference would be good break points for this sense of invulnerability.

Ditto if the superior character has some power which makes them almost invulnerable to their foe's attacks, like effective Active Defense score of 14 or a trait like Flight or Insubstantiality.

Of course, being almost invulnerable isn't the same as being actually invulnerable, which leads to that other cinematic trope: "Nothing Can Defeat Me! Gak! Urk! except maybe that. . ."

Last edited by Pursuivant; 10-18-2021 at 03:57 PM.
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