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Old 06-09-2021, 06:47 AM   #31
Willy
 
Join Date: Dec 2020
Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

That happen even to well trained cops and soldiers who are specifically trained for using guns in close combat. Itīs always one thing to be on the shooting range, and quite another if you are under stress, not to mention mortal danger, if the other site shoots back. So yes a couple of misses is realistic.
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Old 06-09-2021, 09:19 AM   #32
Polkageist
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

Mapping in real-life skill levels is tough, because as PC's you're heroic paragons in the high teens, and the everyday dude is probably shooting with a 12.

And IRL suppressing fire is used SO much compared to how often I've seen it in game. I think that has to do with the game-system incentive to end a fight asap, since the best and fastet way to minimize damage is to remove the potential source of damage and HP is as much a resource as anything so trading 3-5 HP of damage to eliminate a threat is a bargain in a game world. Thus prioritize direct attacks over mitigating incoming fire since you can tank a little bit and end the fight sooner.

Not so much IRL, where 3-5 HP of damage is not something that a human wants nor wants for their comrade, however trivial of a wound it might represent. So suppressing the enemy FIRST is a priority to reduce or remove the chance of even trivial injury, and then directly attacking a suppressed target. Outnumbering your opponent is probably really important.

That's at least how I'm interpreting that odd divide. It's colored a bit too by experiences w/ D&D and Savage Worlds where similar sorts of things come into play. We long ago saw the limitations of healing in-combat because an action spent on healing is an action not spent on eliminating a threat.

Hm, this is off track. Donny, sorry if I got a bit snippy. M&A feels odd, and all the math aside, a very smooth and convenient way I've found to take the roughness off of it is to allow Extra Effort. Players get a resource to spend, GM has fewer actions to police.

RE: Gaining skill/DX w/ actions (EE) is counterargued by All-out-Attack giving you +2 to-hit, which directly boosts a skill. Thing is, that there's always a drawback to that boost, be it giving up your attack (Fev. Def), giving up your defense (AoA), or spending a limited resource (EE).

In a given fight, a PC w/ 10-12 FP only has 7-8 uses of EE before they hit the 1/3 barrier and drop to half move and defense. From my own DF experience, a biggish fight will gas-out a party and they'll use those EE actions pretty conservatively so they don't have to spend 30m after every fight catching their breath. And as a GM, you've got to watch your pacing so you have a relatively rapid sequence to challenge their endurance, and pop in a break now and then to let them recuperate.
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Old 06-09-2021, 10:04 AM   #33
Rupert
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by MrFix View Post
All this song and dance with Designate An Area of 2 Yards Attack Anyone Who Enters is nonsense that has no application in GURPS combat - the NPCs see some dude shooting into the ground, why pop out that way if they can pop out literally anywhere else and shoot the guy, free of any effects of suppressive fire? Most MGs fire at ROF that gives only +2 to hit, if anything jumping out into suppressive fire as GURPS understands it is beneficial - you KNOW the enemy has reduced accuracy compared to normal shooting/wait, AND you know he has no defenses due to all-out attack, and you know he's not in cover because he's shooting you!
How do you spot which 2-hex wide line he's shooting down? It's not as if it's marked out with a glowy area-of-effect marker like in some video game. And 6+RoF bonus and you don't have to worry about visibility is going to be a good deal for someone with Guns-10 or 12 in many situations. 8+RoF for a mounted weapon is actually a pretty good chance of nailing someone dumb enough to try and move through your line of fire, too.

Also note that at RoF 10+ you can have two zones side-by-side.

The real reason suppressive fire works relatively poorly in GURPS is that the turns are so short, and thus the area you can reasonably fill with bullets is small - to cover a mounted machinegun's traditional 'beaten zone' takes many turns, and characters generally get to act on better information than people do in Real Life. Being brutal with Per checks to locate fire before you can dodge it, or to even know exactly where suppressive fire is even going, helps a lot when characters have human-normal Perception levels. It's not so good when they have Per 17+, but then characters with those sorts of attribute levels probably should be able to detect zone attacks with firearms, etc.
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Old 06-09-2021, 10:22 AM   #34
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
How do you spot which 2-hex wide line he's shooting down? It's not as if it's marked out with a glowy area-of-effect marker like in some video game. And 6+RoF bonus and you don't have to worry about visibility is going to be a good deal for someone with Guns-10 or 12 in many situations. 8+RoF for a mounted weapon is actually a pretty good chance of nailing someone dumb enough to try and move through your line of fire, too.

Also note that at RoF 10+ you can have two zones side-by-side.

The real reason suppressive fire works relatively poorly in GURPS is that the turns are so short, and thus the area you can reasonably fill with bullets is small - to cover a mounted machinegun's traditional 'beaten zone' takes many turns, and characters generally get to act on better information than people do in Real Life. Being brutal with Per checks to locate fire before you can dodge it, or to even know exactly where suppressive fire is even going, helps a lot when characters have human-normal Perception levels. It's not so good when they have Per 17+, but then characters with those sorts of attribute levels probably should be able to detect zone attacks with firearms, etc.
I acknowledge your reasoning.
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Old 06-09-2021, 01:43 PM   #35
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The real reason suppressive fire works relatively poorly in GURPS is that the turns are so short, and thus the area you can reasonably fill with bullets is small - to cover a mounted machinegun's traditional 'beaten zone' takes many turns, and characters generally get to act on better information than people do in Real Life. Being brutal with Per checks to locate fire before you can dodge it, or to even know exactly where suppressive fire is even going, helps a lot when characters have human-normal Perception levels. It's not so good when they have Per 17+, but then characters with those sorts of attribute levels probably should be able to detect zone attacks with firearms, etc.
Dodging seems particularly egregious in the case of suppressive fire at longer ranges. You can't be moving evasively to throw off the shooter's aim because they're not aiming at you at all, and seeing where they're aiming and dodging the cone of fire is problematic both because you probably can't see that well and because you would need to dodge the entire cone of fire, not just the one bullet in it that would have happened to hit you if you didn't dodge.

And since dodging one bullet is fairly easy and you're pretty unlikely to need to dodge more than one, that makes a big impact.

(Unless of course you've got the ability to see and react to the bullets themselves, in that case have fun.)
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Old 06-09-2021, 02:20 PM   #36
Varyon
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Dodging seems particularly egregious in the case of suppressive fire at longer ranges. You can't be moving evasively to throw off the shooter's aim because they're not aiming at you at all, and seeing where they're aiming and dodging the cone of fire is problematic both because you probably can't see that well and because you would need to dodge the entire cone of fire, not just the one bullet in it that would have happened to hit you if you didn't dodge.

And since dodging one bullet is fairly easy and you're pretty unlikely to need to dodge more than one, that makes a big impact.

(Unless of course you've got the ability to see and react to the bullets themselves, in that case have fun.)
Having Suppression Fire be impossible to Dodge without leaving the beaten area (or getting behind cover) would make a good deal of sense - it basically makes Suppression Fire function similarly to an Innate Attack with Cone and Bombardment (with the caveat that it's possible - if typically unlikely - to hit more than once).
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Old 06-10-2021, 06:12 PM   #37
Plane
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth View Post
Dodging seems particularly egregious in the case of suppressive fire at longer ranges. You can't be moving evasively to throw off the shooter's aim because they're not aiming at you at all, and seeing where they're aiming and dodging the cone of fire is problematic both because you probably can't see that well and because you would need to dodge the entire cone of fire
They're definitely not using Aim in the maneuver sense, or but even "hosing down" (as B409 puts it) is derived from your skill...

I would think it could perhaps work instead like "target the hex" but if you succeed then there's just a random chance (unaffected by your skill or distance, only affected by Size Modifier of occupant within hex) of hitting what's in that hex, similar to the Bombardment limitation taken on Innate Attacks w/ Area Effect.
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