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Old 06-07-2021, 10:02 AM   #11
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Maybe instead of a "worse of" we can just do a fixed penalty in addition to bulk?
I'm purposefully matching to the way things work for ranged weapons.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I could also see working Reach into it somehow... I think it's probably easier (while running) to stab someone 1 yard away with a Reach 1 spear than to stab someone 4 yards away with a Reach 4 spear for example.
Reach and Bulk should be interrelated - longer weapons have worse Bulk. You could justify having Range penalties, but if you're calling for them on Move and Attack, they should probably be in play for all attacks.

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Do we say guns use the same policy as thrust weapons since they are direct line of fire rather than spinning?
Firing a pistol or rifle is more akin to a thrust than a swing, yes.

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
When it comes to arrows, even though they used thrust it's the thrust of the weapon rather than directly applied thrust so I could see it work more like a gun, if we gave guns lesser penalties than thrust weapons.
Bow usage is also more akin to a thrust than a swing. They'd be a lot more finicky to use than a rifle when moving under one's own power, but that's handily covered by them having pretty bad Bulk.

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Videos of real gun fights where people are dashing about shooting seem to have a lot of misses, far more than seem to be the case in recreation melees or fencing matches.
A good point. I could see firearms being at a worse penalty than thrusting melee weapons for Move and Attack (although I'd be inclined to reduce the penalty for the latter rather than increase it for the former).
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:05 AM   #12
Polkageist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

The move and attack penalties do feel a bit weird, but it's important to remember that the movement is happening in 1-second increments, and moving your full movement is in practice booking it at a full run, accelerating up and then decelerating to stop (the full-on run that gives you +1 movement is of course not worrying about the whole deceleration part).

That's a lot to coordinate, so once you factor all that in a skill cap is not unreasonable. A fleche in fencing for example, is definitely an all-out-attack and given its effectiveness it hews to the removal of the skill cap when you do AoA.
Of course, Extra Effort is a rule option I heartily endorse. A fighter CAN keep it all together, at the cost of extreme concentration and effort that will quickly exhaust them.

As for ranged attack stuff, a small light thing that doesn't require engaging with the target beyond pointing at it is pretty ok to do at a run, and remember that the range penalties still apply and those are pretty significant pretty quick and there's definitely no aiming going on. The -2 or -3 for bulk is going to be added to a -3 to -5 for range so that's quite a malus once you add it all up.

And that's for something that's light and handy, bows are starting at bulk -6, plus the range penalty, so we're talking seriously heroic archer skill levels in order to break above a 9 (-6 shortbow, and -4 range = -10 to skill).

(Examples for rangers eyeballed from games I've been in, combat ranges with guns tend to be short because giant maps are a paaaain).
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Old 06-07-2021, 10:06 AM   #13
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

That's a good point.

So let's make a thought experiment to remove it. Imagine a circle with diameter equal to your own RL Move. In the center is a circle a yard wide with a target dummy in the middle.

You have five seconds. You must remain within the larger circle and remain in motion at your full Move. For the first test, you have a tonfa. For the second test, you have a revolver. In which test would you expect to land the most hits?
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Old 06-07-2021, 11:39 AM   #14
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
That's a good point.

So let's make a thought experiment to remove it. Imagine a circle with diameter equal to your own RL Move. In the center is a circle a yard wide with a target dummy in the middle.

You have five seconds. You must remain within the larger circle and remain in motion at your full Move. For the first test, you have a tonfa. For the second test, you have a revolver. In which test would you expect to land the most hits?
Revolver, if you're skilled. It's possible to time your cadence and counter-act a lot of the bumping. GURPS calls it Close-Quarters Combat technique. It removes bulk (up to -4) from the penalties on Move & Attack. IRL it is sometimes called Combat Gliding.

Melee weapons generally require a lot of footwork, especially to deliver a proper full strength blow, so it's less reliable when your legs are busy moving your body around the battlefield in the high speed sprint way.
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Old 06-07-2021, 11:54 AM   #15
Polkageist
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

Nailing down the constants, the example looks like it assumes this:
1) Constant distance at 5 yards (a common move value)
2) Each action is a move and attack
3) Ranged and Melee skill are equal, we'll say 14 since that's a nice 'good but not great' level.

Number of attempts is less important than the percentages.
A melee attack is going to be at 9, so 37.5% success rate.
A ranged attack w/ a bulk -2 weapon (common pistol): 14 -2 (bulk) -2 (range) = 10, so 50%.
A bigger pistol (bulk -3) is 9, so on par w/ melee and worse as bulk increases.

So, aside from pistols w/ minimal bulk penalties, shooting on the move is at least as hard if not harder than melee on the move, especially as ranges increase. Melee may also consider that your target may very well stay engaged with you, so subsequent attacks (like the remaining 4+) would be at full skill so 37%, then 90%, 90%, etc.

Skill matters more w/ ranged weapons, so if you're really good with a pistol you're really good at hitting things, even on the move which is something that you drill in a training course. Shooting on the move isn't some niche technique, it's a core part of the skillset so avoid the impulse to give it extra penalties beyond the existing ones. That's guns though, bows have HUGE bulk penalties which makes shooting on the move at all but the closest ranges just nutbar hard.
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Old 06-07-2021, 12:32 PM   #16
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Donny Brook View Post
Videos of real gun fights where people are dashing about shooting seem to have a lot of misses, far more than seem to be the case in recreation melees or fencing matches.
Are people in those melees using Move and Attack? Because if they're not, that assessment is irrelevant. In a standard fencing match, there's generally very little possible reason to attempt one...
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Old 06-07-2021, 01:05 PM   #17
Polkageist
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

On a fencing strip it's not just little reason to do so, it's physically HARD to be far enough away to be in a position for a move-and-attack and still be doing good fencing. Also those gunfight 'misses' may be covering or suppressing fire, untargeted return fire to keep the opponents honest or just panicked return fire, things like that. You'd have to go through them frame-by-frame (or second-by-second) and estimate ranges, aiming bonuses, situational penalties, action choice, and so on. Those recreation melees and fencing bouts may have move-and-attack once at the start, and then the rest are at-skill because everyone's within a step of each other. And that's not even taking into account AoA and other things to mitigate the move-and-attack limit.

Fencing keeps being a really hard thing to model in GURPS, it involves sub-second and simultaneous actions and exchanges that gets squirrelly when you scale it and put it into an I-go-you-go structure. But then again I AM a fencer, so I have a picture of the level of detail and trust me you don't want to try to capture that all in a ruleset, you'll go MAD (or make Phoenix Point w/ swords).
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Old 06-07-2021, 01:42 PM   #18
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

The somewhat silly thing about move and attack is that, because of the cap, a highly skilled character may be able to make difficult attacks like the vitals or even eyes with exactly the same chance of success as an ordinary attack against the torso.

[The very silly thing is that, because attacks against many of these hit locations hit the torso on an attack that misses by one, a strict reading of the rules would cause them to hit the torso on a roll of ten, making them more accurate than regular torso shots, but no sane GM would allow that.]
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:22 PM   #19
Polkageist
 
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by ravenfish View Post
The somewhat silly thing about move and attack is that, because of the cap, a highly skilled character may be able to make difficult attacks like the vitals or even eyes with exactly the same chance of success as an ordinary attack against the torso.

[The very silly thing is that, because attacks against many of these hit locations hit the torso on an attack that misses by one, a strict reading of the rules would cause them to hit the torso on a roll of ten, making them more accurate than regular torso shots, but no sane GM would allow that.]
I'll have to check on it, but I think that the rules mention something about disallowing precision strikes like vitals and such on a M&A?
I know for sure that Deceptive Attack needs to have the base skill >10 before it's applicable, so a M&A can't also include a Decep. Attack, and prooobably also disallows Vitals.

Could go for the arm/leg I suppose.
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Old 06-07-2021, 02:39 PM   #20
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Default Re: Verification re: Move and Attack

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Originally Posted by Polkageist View Post
I'll have to check on it, but I think that the rules mention something about disallowing precision strikes like vitals and such on a M&A?
I know for sure that Deceptive Attack needs to have the base skill >10 before it's applicable, so a M&A can't also include a Decep. Attack, and prooobably also disallows Vitals.

Could go for the arm/leg I suppose.
I know about the Deceptive Attack minimum skill level, but I've never been aware of needing a minimum effective skill level to make attacks on the vitals. If you find the reference, point it out.
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