Definition of 'disadvantage'

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If you want to. I wouldn't because it keeps that IQ! nonsense under control.

It's only "nonsense" if you think being smart but NOT super perceptive and strong willed is nonsense. I think it's ultra realistic. Real smart people are no more likely to have great senses or will.
I don't like being told making realistic characters lacking common definition disadvantages is highly frowned upon and/or requires using up much, if not all, of my Gurps Disadvantage quota.
It's one of the reasons why I like separating Willpower and Perception out but keeping IQ! at 20 points. To avoid any semblance of point crocking.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Terwin

Are you familiar with the IQ! construct?(+1IQ,-1Per, -1 Will : 10 points/level)
or worse the HT! construct(+1HT, -0.25 Speed, FP-1 : 2 points/level)

These are arguments for counting attributes towards the disad limit.

Personally I'm fine with ST! and HT!, but would never allow IQ! or DX!.

But that's because the situations needing a straight ST or HT roll and the number of skills they both cover combined are far, far fewer than the other two stats taken singly.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also to be avoided are too many Disads that make work for the GM. Enemies, Dependents and other ones that require the GM to prepare in advance and probably change the planned session.

This is another thing that a flat Disad Limit won't protect you from from but judgment and discretion will.

I also simply disallow all "GM Work" disads (Dependents, Enemies, and Weirdness Magnet)... unless the Player has a really, really, really good idea.

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It's one of the reasons why I like separating Willpower and Perception out but keeping IQ! at 20 points. To avoid any semblance of point crocking.

That's one of the house rules I stole from PK's site.

[Emerald Cat]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I also simply disallow all "GM Work" disads (Dependents, Enemies, and Weirdness Magnet)... unless the Player has a really, really, really good idea.

I'd only allow my players to take the Enemy disadvantage if everyone takes it. Because otherwise the characters who didn't receive points for taking an Enemy are going to defend the character who did.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Personally I'm fine with ST! and HT!, but would never allow IQ! or DX!.

But that's because the situations needing a straight ST or HT roll and the number of skills they both cover combined are far, far fewer than the other two stats taken singly.

The problem with ST! is that it's free (ST - Striking ST - Lifting ST - HP = 0).

The problem with HT! is that there are a lot of straight HT rolls (to heal, to stay conscious, to resist poison, disease, and afflictions, to survive injuries) and they're some of the most important in the game. Basically +3 HT! includes Hard to Kill lvl 3 (6), Hard to Subdue lvl 3 (6), and Resistant +3 (Very Common: Metabolic Hazards) (10) for 6 points instead of 22. That's roughly a 70% limitation that comes with no limitations and a few tertiary benefits.

Personally, I have no problem with IQ!. Will and Per are incredibly useful traits to have on an adventure, if a player wants to do with out them, the risks are worth the points, in my view. I only charge them to the disadvantage total if they fall below 10.

As for DX!, well, I've never had a player intentionally buy their Speed down below the highest whole number. It doesn't seem too broken.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by aesir23

The problem with ST! is that it's free (ST - Striking ST - Lifting ST - HP = 0).

What exactly does ST! do? There aren't any ST based skills. I basically assign any ST based task to one of Striking or Lifting ST.

Personally, I have no problem with IQ!. Will and Per are incredibly useful traits to have on an adventure, if a player wants to do with out them, the risks are worth the points, in my view. I only charge them to the disadvantage total if they fall below 10.

10 points is just too cheap for a talent that effects half the skills in the game. The fact that Per and Will are useful is largely irrelevant compared to the IQ! point crock.

[aesir23]

Originally Posted by corwyn

What exactly does ST! do? There aren't any ST based skills. I basically assign any ST based task to one of Striking or Lifting ST.

I don't know, I'd never really heard of it before now. Well, what ever it does you can have infinite levels for free! ;)

Originally Posted by corwyn

10 points is just too cheap for a talent that effects half the skills in the game. The fact that Per and Will are useful is largely irrelevant compared to the IQ! point crock.

I tend to disagree. In most of my campaigns, PCs roll against Per and HT combined more than all IQ skills together.

It's a lot of skills, true, but fairly few of them are that useful in life and death adventuring situations. I guess I'd probably feel differently about IQ! if I included more social engineering and creation and invention kind of stuff in my games.

[dfinlay]

The other thing to bear in mind is that disadvantage limits are not soley about limiting disadvantages. They are also about limiting overall power and versatility. When you say 150 points with -50 disadvantages, you can make the assumption that the players only have 200 points to play things with which limits the degree to which they can get lots of powerful things. If they can drop a few attributes (say take ST 7, DX 8 and BS 3) on top of their 50 points in disadvantages, they now have 300 points to play with in terms of abilities. Now, those low attributes are likely going to come back to bite them, but that doesn't stop them from stealing the stage and/or breaking several scenarios with their extra points.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

How do I avoid abusive whatever behaviors? With the Dell'Orto DMG rule when necessary and it seldom is.

To those of you unfamiliar with this venerable practice when a Player is doing something you don't want to see in your game you rap his knuckles with the edge of the D&D 1st ed DMG and tell him "No!".

Do you keep a copy of the 1st ed DMG on hand while playing GURPS just to be able to do this, because if so, that's actually kind of bad-ass.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Flyndaran

It's only "nonsense" if you think being smart but NOT super perceptive and strong willed is nonsense. .

Certainly people who are smart but weak willed and oblivious exist. So do myopic, absent-minded and people with Parkinsons. Allowing unlimited will and perception reduction undermines the character design system. IQ isn't intended to cost a straight ten character points per point and letting it cost that messes with Talents. And superhumanly intelligent characters always have higher than average perception and/or will

[Leynok]

Originally Posted by aesir23

I don't know, I'd never really heard of it before now. Well, what ever it does you can have infinite levels for free! ;)

Actually not true. There is no such Disadvantage as -Striking ST or -Lifting ST. If you want to lower just one, you have to lower your whole ST score and then buy up HP and the other variant of ST.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by corwyn

What exactly does ST! do?

Hobby Skill. Also possibly some ST rolls... maybe.

But yeah, on thought, there should never be a ST!.