[Psionic Powers] Gestalts Only limitation?

[Nereidalbel]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I've PM'd Dargaron (which is the name he uses, 'Daragon' was my memory being faulty), so he should respond when he has time. I'm not sure how long that will be, since I think he might be in college - or might be a professor - if I'm not mixing him up with someone else.

The article he wrote had five hundred or so vampires in the Ordo Sacri Vampyre, but there may be others surviving. I wonder, though, whether the Accessibility limitation should be based on the number of vampires as a fraction of the world population (somewhere around 450,000,000 people, so about one in nine hundred thousand, not counting however many aren't in the Ordo), or as a fraction of the population of just that part of the world, since at least the members of the Ordo aren't likely to range that far afield.

If it's rare in-setting for vampires to wander more than a week or so from "home base," then base it on the local population. If, however, vampires are known to travel long-distance, then you use global population.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Prince Charon

I've PM'd Dargaron (which is the name he uses, 'Daragon' was my memory being faulty), so he should respond when he has time. I'm not sure how long that will be, since I think he might be in college - or might be a professor - if I'm not mixing him up with someone else.

The article he wrote had five hundred or so vampires in the Ordo Sacri Vampyre, but there may be others surviving. I wonder, though, whether the Accessibility limitation should be based on the number of vampires as a fraction of the world population (somewhere around 450,000,000 people, so about one in nine hundred thousand, not counting however many aren't in the Ordo), or as a fraction of the population of just that part of the world, since at least the members of the Ordo aren't likely to range that far afield.

As a fraction (500 divided by 450,000,000) which is 0.000001, which results in a -40% modifier "Accessibility, Only with other vampires." So total modifier is probably around -45% or so assuming the numbers you gave are accurate for the campaign.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

It's -5% because it can be any other person to help you activate it. It doesn't have to be a vampire or whatever, just another psi. That's where the other Accessibility limitation comes in. If it requires both a gestalt to use and the one you are gestalting with must be a vampire then it becomes cheaper. So really it's (-5%) + (-N%) = final modifier for the power to be used only while gestalted with at least one other vampire. Now, if the gestalt requires more than one vampire (and I think he said something like that) then the modifier is going to go up for gestalt's only.

I wasn't even thinking about the vampire business... that seems to have snuck in while I wasn't looking. I don't think the basic Maintenance applies because of the linking requirement and the necessity that they all be psis. Have you got a confirming source for the -5% as opposed to -10% for two assistants?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

I wasn't even thinking about the vampire business... that seems to have snuck in while I wasn't looking. I don't think the basic Maintenance applies because of the linking requirement and the necessity that they all be psis. Have you got a confirming source for the -5% as opposed to -10% for two assistants?

Sure, p. 99 of GURPS Powers says:

Some supernatural abilities
require ritual or worship by others to
work. To evaluate “Only with assistants,”
halve the basic point value that
Maintenance (p. B143) gives for that
number of people and write it as a percentage;
e.g., 11-20 people is -25%.

Being in a gestalt requires at least one other psi other than yourself (you don't count yourself for this purpose, you count the number of people you need). B143 says maintenance by one person is a -10 point disadvantage. Halved and converted to a percentile is -5%. Therefore "Accessibility, Only in gestalt" is worth -5%.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

Being in a gestalt requires at least one other psi other than yourself (you don't count yourself for this purpose, you count the number of people you need). B143 says maintenance by one person is a -10 point disadvantage. Halved and converted to a percentile is -5%. Therefore "Accessibility, Only in gestalt" is worth -5%.

Huh... s'funny I never read it that way before, but looking at it now makes it seem I've been misinterpreting it all this time. I'll tell ya though, that it seems like a bad deal at -10%, and -5% just looks crazy stingy. Needing the presence of a specialist (or a facsimile thereof) is only the equivalent of a Nuisance Effect? Really?

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Huh... s'funny I never read it that way before, but looking at it now makes it seem I've been misinterpreting it all this time. I'll tell ya though, that it seems like a bad deal at -10%, and -5% just looks crazy stingy. Needing the presence of a specialist (or a facsimile thereof) is only the equivalent of a Nuisance Effect? Really?

I think you may be misunderstanding what a gestalt is via Psionic Powers - any character with appropriate psi abilities can add them to your own and make you better - even if it's to serve as a FP battery. That is beyond useful - especially for uber-techniques or high-penalty psi-techniques. -5% is plenty. Remember, if it requires a lot of psis, the number goes up. So if you need 60 other psis to use your ability it becomes a -35% limitation. If you needed 101 it's -40% and so on.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I think you may be misunderstanding what a gestalt is via Psionic Powers - any character with appropriate psi abilities can add them to your own and make you better - even if it's to serve as a FP battery. That is beyond useful - especially for uber-techniques or high-penalty psi-techniques. -5% is plenty. Remember, if it requires a lot of psis, the number goes up. So if you need 60 other psis to use your ability it becomes a -35% limitation. If you needed 101 it's -40% and so on.

Nah, I gotta good handle on gestalts. The specifics of them isn't really the issue. The op's proposal is taking a technique (small "t") that is available to all psis, and making it the only way the limited character can use his abilities. That seems much more inconvenient than a -5% limitation implies.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Nah, I gotta good handle on gestalts. The specifics of them isn't really the issue. The op's proposal is taking a technique (small "t") that is available to all psis, and making it the only way the limited character can use his abilities. That seems much more inconvenient than a -5% limitation implies.

Hmmm. Let me ponder this. I think I have a idea...

[Christopher R. Rice]

I've been thinking about this most of the night. What about a new variant of psi-techniques: a gestalt-technique. Basically, halve the penalty (or when creating a new technique, treat each +20% as -1 worth of penalties), but it can only be used when you are in gestalt with at least one other psi. It keeps the regular system in play, but gives a reason for psis who are often mind-linking with others to enhance their powers a reason to put points into it. Of course, you'd use the higher of the gestalt technique, your psi-technique, and the other psis in the gestalt with you level. Hmmm, maybe rough, really, I'd just use the rules from Pyramid. If it takes at least six other vampires to futz with the weather, figure out the point cost of the weather ability, divide by six, and have it as something only those vampires can buy.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Ghostdancer

I've been thinking about this most of the night. What about a new variant of psi-techniques: a gestalt-technique. Basically, halve the penalty (or when creating a new technique, treat each +20% as -1 worth of penalties), but it can only be used when you are in gestalt with at least one other psi. It keeps the regular system in play, but gives a reason for psis who are often mind-linking with others to enhance their powers a reason to put points into it. Of course, you'd use the higher of the gestalt technique, your psi-technique, and the other psis in the gestalt with you level. Hmmm, maybe rough, really, I'd just use the rules from Pyramid. If it takes at least six other vampires to futz with the weather, figure out the point cost of the weather ability, divide by six, and have it as something only those vampires can buy.

I dunno... it looks like the kernel of a good idea to me. I wouldn't lose any more sleep over it though ;)