[Fantasy][Magic] Divine spellcasting, real-world religions, and fantasy settings

[KarlKost]

I got say, this thread has been... Inspiring.

As the ideas were storming my brain related to the Shamans, I was thinking about DF scenarios... And I very much enjoyed this idea of having each "class" having a power source very unique and distinct with their own mechanics, instead of simply being "those other guys with alternate spell lists".

I guess that Shamans are pretty much done, needing only the final touches (which is were the heavy manual labor begins), but for the archetypical "clerics", althought sure, Power Investiture and the other advantages already brought here do the trick, I was thinking in something more elaborated. So, a few suggestions:

True Faith: I was thinking into having True Faith as a meta trait with levels. What I mean by that is, at each level of True Faith, the char buys a set of powers, so for example, True Faith 1 gives "Healing Hands", it heals 1D once a day, also gives Detect (Evil) and some Affliction against Undead. Just as an example. Then at lvl 2 it gives Healing Hands 2D twice a day, and the Affliction against Undead gets more piwerful, etc. That way this main source of "clerical power" also becomes a leveled power, thus ideal for DFRPG

A preferable alternative may be to have this as Rank, that will be very setting relatable. If "Divine Magic" as a matter of a personal relation to the God, True Faith. If it is however a matter of the relation of the God with his organized church/cult, then Rank.

The Advantage "True Faith" in the Basic Set is still valid in either case thou, offering that "extra miracle" from time to time, beyond the scope of the regular powers offered by the God.

Extra "spells", or better saying, "divine blessings", could be represented by the Mechanics used for Sorcery (for advantages as Magic). I think that would fit much better the classical clerics rather than spell lists.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Extra "spells", or better saying, "divine blessings", could be represented by the Mechanics used for Sorcery (for advantages as Magic). I think that would fit much better the classical clerics rather than spell lists.

I rather like Divine Favor for priests.

[KarlKost]

Now, just a little summary of "classic classes" of DF to facilitate this brainstorming:

Mages: their "magic" is probably the most classic, and its source comes from mechanical underpins of the universe. It may either come from the "Plane of Magic", or from the "Universal energy" or merely as a byproduct of the "physical" laws of the universe. So, spell lists already are a good fit, just as any of the ideas on Thaumatology and other supplements, like Path/Book, RPM, Realm, Incantation etc.

Clerics: the source of their "miracles" are indeed divine intervention. This also can be interpreted in different ways, it may be DIRECT Divine Intervention, in the sense that the cleric asks for a miracle and the God(dess) grants it, the God thus being a direct actor in the act, or it may be an INDIRECT act, by which I mean that the clerics serve as "vessels" of the God's power, as if they behaved as Avatars of their Gods, in which case the God may not even be aware or paying attention to what his clerics are doing with his divine powers. In that case, the clerics simply channel the "divine energies" for their purposes. That difference may have implications not only on the fluff, but also on mechanics - for example, if clerics simply channel energies from a God that may not be paying attention, it is possible for such a cleric to be using those in "ways they were not supposed to" at least for a while, before their divine patron gets the sent of "their sins". Depending on taste, this may even open the doors for some clerics to try to trick their Gods (usually ending in disaster for said clerics but hey, it doesnt mean some wouldnt try)
As for mechanics, my idea is like I stated above, "True Faith" meta trait (which would do good to include the True Faith advantage) or Rank in the Church with each level given a plethora of powers (Healing Hands, Detect (Evil), Affliction (Undead Only) etc), plus "Magic as Advantages" for additional blessings (as per Sorcery) or simply further advantages/powers

Paladins (or Anti Paladins): pretty much the same as clerics, since their power source is the same (Gods), the only difference is the Martial emphasis of Paladins, which will mean more points towards combat, perhaps some specific social skills to inspire followers, particularly Martial social skills like leadership, which by itself already means there will be less points for the "divine miracles", meaning that Paladins will have more combat oriented abilities and less "divine magic" naturally, thus preserving the "niche" of both classes without effort. A good extra to give for Paladins may be the Imbue advantage (Power Ups 5 if Im not mistaken?), althought that can also be a thing for clerics too.

Shamans: the source of their "powers" come exclusively from spiritual bargains. Medium, Blessed, Channeling, Spirit Empathy and skills related to spiritual knowledge. Astral Projection can be a thing from the get go, or it can be something that needs to be bought up and learned as you "level up", perhaps beggining with an Unreliable limitation that can be bought up as you get more experienced. Totems and Mentors (older shamans) as Patrons, Familiars as allies and Spirit Guides as Contacts. Shamans CAN have permanent Powers in the form of Advantages, as long as it comes with fitting disadvantages (Pact, Duty, Sense of Duty) or at least a good story (The Great Eagle gave me the power to Fly for saving her from the tenctacle beast of the deeps) - but GMs should be careful not to give away powers with no strings attached. Other than that, Favors can grant powers, or just simple social bargains. Shamans thus have a great potential to become VERY powerful if they play their cards right, but playing this "class" properly may require a good work from both the GM and the player.

Monk: I'll just assume that their "magic" comes from the "Chi". Therefore, here we have a MAJOR shift from all the others, in the sense that this power source would be INTERNAL, while all the others come from external sources - mages get their power as a sourt of "alternative science from a universe with different laws", clerics are divine intervention and shamans from the spirits, but the source of the "classical Monk" of RPG I'll just outright assume to be this internal energy called Chi, which may be the Monk's own "life force" or perhaps it comes directly from his "soul".
In terms of Mechanics, I guess the Imbue Advantage gets most of it covered, perhaps restricted for "own body only" for the classical D&D Monk that fights unarmed. A few advantages or powers beyond that may also fit - like a small amount of natural DR for example, or a DR with some limitations - like costs FP, representing a DR that comes from "Chi Channeling. Also, Chi itself may be an ER, thus giving them a "Chi Battery" to spend on power activation.

Druids: druids may seem similar to shamans... Thus I've being thinking on ways to differentiate them. And also to differentiate them from clerics. So, in my view the power source for Druids comes from the "elements", or the "primal cosmic forces". Classically (in RPGs) Druids are connected to Nature, but I've been thinking about expanding that a little. Anyway, the Druids powers dont come from Spirits like Shamans, althought they may look similar because both have deep connections to the natural world. Neither do their power come from Gods of Nature - so for example, a "Cleric of Gaia" could ressemble A LOT a Druid or even a Shaman, but they are NOT the same.
The trick here is that this would be highly setting dependable. I'll explain: on settings where Gods act as a sort of AVATARS or the embodiment or "phisical manifestation" of concepts, Druids have a place. For example, the Egyptian Sun God Ra is the embodiment of the Sun - but Ra is NOT the Sun.
So, Druids in those settings would have their power flowing DIRECTLY from the "primordial concept", not from the "Conscious Manifestation" of said concept which we call as "Gods".
Thus, a Cleric of Gaia gain his powers as a DIRECT and CONSCIOUS intervention of the manifestation of Nature which we call as the Goddess Gaia, while the Druid is a conduit upon which the concept of Nature naturally flows or is channeled to. So, in a sense, Druids would act as "minor" or "limited" "Gods" or "Avatars" for that concept.
With that interpretation, we could expand the idea of Druids for pretty much anything. So for example, a mortal that is a "manifestation of the Underworld" could be a "Druid of Death". Sure, Druids are classicaly connected to Nature, thus those "alternative Druids" would simply have different names. "Death Knight" for example could be a fitting name for a "Druid of Death". Or "Warlock" could be a fitting name for a "Druid of Evil" or "Druid of Hell".
As for mechanics, Advantages and Advantages as Powers. Unlike Clerics, there's no real need for Power Investiture or even True Faith or others - althought the Druid (and variations) may still have those if they are organized.

Rangers: same as Paladins, but for the considerations of Druids above.

"Arcane Archers": archers with Imbue. Power source may be the same as mages, just with a focus on bows and other ranged weapons. Alternatively, this class may not exist, being replaced by Rangers, or they may be a complement/alternative of Rangers, upon which case their Power Source may be Primordial (as Druids) or Divine. It's also possible to be all of the above. No matter the case, the Mechanics are covered by Imbue, with only the fluff (and power source modifier) being different

[sir_pudding]

Five of those aren't occupational templates in DF.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I rather like Divine Favor for priests.

I did not know what that was and your repply just confused me, I've been a few years away and Im only returning now, so I did a little Google and yeah, this seems to be EXACTLY the thing! I dont have that supplement, but it seems to have it all perfectly covered, and pretty much in the way I was thinking about "True Faith", a leveled meta trait that gives access to several different powers. Well, I guess there's not much else to add, Divine Favor pretty much gets it covered.

[Michael Thayne]

I want to mention that the main reason I started this thread is I've been trying to decide if I should (1) try to run another campaign in the Dungeon Fantasy setting I've been working on, or (2) go ahead with my plan to do something more Infinite Worlds-esque, and if the latter how much I should have religious history diverge in my alternate timeline. If I want to have remotely D&D-like clerics and druids I'll probably run Dungeon Fantasy. Also, while I find things like Divine Favor interesting, I'm not sure if I want any really fancy powers (fancy in terms of supporting mechanics) in my still largely hypothetical setting.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

I want to mention that the main reason I started this thread is I've been trying to decide if I should (1) try to run another campaign in the Dungeon Fantasy setting I've been working on, or (2) go ahead with my plan to do something more Infinite Worlds-esque, and if the latter how much I should have religious history diverge in my alternate timeline. If I want to have remotely D&D-like clerics and druids I'll probably run Dungeon Fantasy. Also, while I find things like Divine Favor interesting, I'm not sure if I want any really fancy powers (fancy in terms of supporting mechanics) in my still largely hypothetical setting.

What is it exactly the plan for your Infinity Earth? What would be the power level or rather the level of fantastic involved?

Also, I didnt understand what you meant about fancy mechanics

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

What is it exactly the plan for your Infinity Earth? What would be the power level or rather the level of fantastic involved?

I was thinking of doing something very loosely inspired by Adventure Time, a world that was low mana and then some catastrophe happened that raised the mana level to normal while wrecking civilization. But I'm giving myself a lot of wiggle-room to add random other fantastic elements. In terms of character point totals, I want characters to be able to feel decently heroic but probably not so high that combat skills in the 18-20 range feel commonplace.

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Also, I didnt understand what you meant about fancy mechanics

"Fancy" maybe is too strong, but to the extent I'd be using powers I think I'd want to use the relatively straightforward approach found in the chapter on psionics in Basic Set, as well as the treatment of powers in Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters. As opposed to an approach where you're using a lot of rules that may or may not be found in the main Powers book but definitely aren't found in Basic Set—which Divine Favor does.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

"Fancy" maybe is too strong, but to the extent I'd be using powers I think I'd want to use the relatively straightforward approach found in the chapter on psionics in Basic Set, as well as the treatment of powers in Dungeon Fantasy and Monster Hunters. As opposed to an approach where you're using a lot of rules that may or may not be found in the main Powers book but definitely aren't found in Basic Set—which Divine Favor does.

Ok, so let me try to simplify an idea, as to not having to resort to Divine Favor. Now, you do know how to use "Alternate Abilities" right? You pay only full price for the most expensive ability, and all others you pay just 1/5 of the price, with the drawback that you can only use 1 at a time and require a ready maneuver to change between them, and if your power is turned of, it turns them all of (hence the -10% Divine modifier).
Now, this first most expensive ability may be an amalgamation of Power Investidure, Blessed, Serendipity, True Faith and others that I dont recall but that would fit well (I'll check the Basic Set later). Instead of buying those however, simply create a new "attribute" of sorts, let us call it simply "Faith" perhaps. I wont tweak too much in here, I could but I'll just throw some random numbers instead. Make it a leveled trait, perhaps with 10 pts/lvl. That means that under this "Faith" you can buy ANY advantages up to 50 pts per lvl of Faith paying only 1/5 the price. Those advantages would become "divine blessings". Other than that, this "Faith" can (and should) have other effects, depending on the lvl. First, it could serve as a "Talent" for all your "divine spellcasting", thus granting +1/lvl to all abilities skills (as per Supers). Secondly, it could function as a Rank inside the church of the cleric. Thirdly, you CAN add those "wild" advantages that I described before - so for example, lvl 1 grants the same benefits as True Faith advantage from Basic, level 2 could grant Destiny etc etc, just do the math for the prices to match.

So, there's a lot of advantages that you can include in this "Faith meta trait", and it serves as the basis for the other "powers" bought at a discount. So, "Faith" alone could be done to answer prayers (by Serendipity for instance, but even with Luck), but also give some permanent abilities or "spells" or simply blessings (in the form of advantages bought at 1/5 the price.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

Ok, so let me try to simplify an idea, as to not having to resort to Divine Favor. Now, you do know how to use "Alternate Abilities" right? You pay only full price for the most expensive ability, and all others you pay just 1/5 of the price, with the drawback that you can only use 1 at a time and require a ready maneuver to change between them, and if your power is turned of, it turns them all of (hence the -10% Divine modifier).
Now, this first most expensive ability may be an amalgamation of Power Investidure, Blessed, Serendipity, True Faith and others that I dont recall but that would fit well (I'll check the Basic Set later). Instead of buying those however, simply create a new "attribute" of sorts, let us call it simply "Faith" perhaps. I wont tweak too much in here, I could but I'll just throw some random numbers instead. Make it a leveled trait, perhaps with 10 pts/lvl. That means that under this "Faith" you can buy ANY advantages up to 50 pts per lvl of Faith paying only 1/5 the price. Those advantages would become "divine blessings". Other than that, this "Faith" can (and should) have other effects, depending on the lvl. First, it could serve as a "Talent" for all your "divine spellcasting", thus granting +1/lvl to all abilities skills (as per Supers). Secondly, it could function as a Rank inside the church of the cleric. Thirdly, you CAN add those "wild" advantages that I described before - so for example, lvl 1 grants the same benefits as True Faith advantage from Basic, level 2 could grant Destiny etc etc, just do the math for the prices to match.

So, there's a lot of advantages that you can include in this "Faith meta trait", and it serves as the basis for the other "powers" bought at a discount. So, "Faith" alone could be done to answer prayers (by Serendipity for instance, but even with Luck), but also give some permanent abilities or "spells" or simply blessings (in the form of advantages bought at 1/5 the price.

It's not that I don't understand what you're saying because it's too complicated. I'm a GURPS rules geek and I once ran a supers game where I made a batch of using Divine Favor, Psionic Powers, and a variant of Madness Dossier-style loa (similar to Rory's spirit totems idea) all in one game. And all those pregens got used. So I'm not absolutely opposed to that sort of thing in general, I'm just saying I'm not sure I want to make things that complicated for this game.