New Ability: Extra Effort (no roll)

[naloth]

While this could be a cinematic campaign feature, I'd prefer to assign a fair value to the ability to spend fatigue for extra effort. It would work like:

Supernatural Extra Effort
- Get a 5% boost per 1 fatigue (or ER) spent with no roll required. Examples: If you spend 5 fatigue you get a +50% enhancement for one feat (lift something briefly, flip something heavy off someone, make one powerful strike, etc).

As a subset of godlike extra effort, which itself is only one type of Will roll I'm tempted to call it 10 points which would be the same value as limited Will (only for godlike EE at will-1) + a Perk (no EE rolls when your Will is 17+).

Thoughts? Different ways to go about doing it?

[the_matrix_walker]

It kind of has to be a campaign switch. I would probably just do a semi-fiat cost.

The fair value is buying everything to double effectiveness and applying (Costs 11 Fatigue, Variable, -55%) to the additions so that each fatigue spent adds 5% to the output.

Based on that, I'd at least call it a 50 point buy-in, in the spirit of Ultrapower and Quick Gadgeteer.

You could certainly enable campaign switches with perks, buy up extra effort with limited Will or a technique, but this is one of those instances where I'm not sure the results of GURPS math will end up being "fair."

[naloth]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

The fair value is buying everything to double effectiveness and applying (Costs 11 Fatigue, Variable, -55%) to the additions so that each fatigue spent adds 5% to the output.

Based on the formula from powers it's -30% (avg being 1+11/2 * -5%).

The only advantage of it being a campaign switch is you don't really have to find a "fair" price. I'd rather have it only available to a few PCs, though, which means finding a reasonable value for it.

Based on that, I'd at least call it a 50 point buy-in, in the spirit of Ultrapower and Quick Gadgeteer.

50 seems a tad high considering even the normal EE rules (Campaigns). Will+12 for 48 points and make -5 rolls at 17+ for +50% lifting. Likewise Mighty Blows allows for a more economical way to improve your damage.

Having said that, this was primarily a ST increase, so I may just use +ST! with a variable fatigue cost like I've done in the past. It just seemed like EE might be a more elegant solution.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by naloth

Based on the formula from powers it's -30% (avg being 1+11/2 * -5%).

Nope, Avg is (1+20/2)*-5%

You're paying 20 Fatigue for +100%, the average being 11. It's identical to the cost in the example in powers.

50 seems a tad high considering even the normal EE rules (Campaigns). Will+12 for 48 points and make -5 rolls at 17+ for +50% lifting. Likewise Mighty Blows allows for a more economical way to improve your damage.

You can still use normal extra effort and mighty blows in addition to this too. Multiply your multiplier.

But perhaps I did overshoot saying 50 points after all... But it depends on the game. If you're playing supers, giving someone a roll-free way of doubling their power output could be devastating. Offering Will +25 (Only for Extra-Effort/Stunts, -80%) [25] & No nuisance rolls, Extra Effort! (Wildcard Perk [5] for 30 points just feels too cheap. Especially if Godlike Extra Effort shoudl appear.

Having said that, this was primarily a ST increase, so I may just use +ST! with a variable fatigue cost like I've done in the past. It just seemed like EE might be a more elegant solution.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Nope, Avg is (1+20/2)*-5%

You're paying 20 Fatigue for +100%, the average being 11. It's identical to the cost in the example in powers.

Ok, I misunderstood what you were going for. I thought you were capping it at +50ish% rather than +100% .

You can still use normal extra effort and mighty blows in addition to this too. Multiply your multiplier.

EE can't be stacked with EE. Even though this is an advantage it's still defined as an extra effort option.

But perhaps I did overshoot saying 50 points after all... But it depends on the game. If you're playing supers, giving someone a roll-free way of doubling their power output could be devastating. Offering Will +25 (Only for Extra-Effort/Stunts, -80%) [25] & No nuisance rolls, Extra Effort! (Wildcard Perk [5] for 30 points just feels too cheap. Especially if Godlike Extra Effort shoudl appear.

-80% sounds too generous for that. Extra effort is something you can invoke anytime so using it for *any* EE/stunt (even any godlike stunt) is probably closer to 50% of the value on Will making that a -20% limit.

What I was suggesting was trading the penalized Will rolls (-1 per 5%) for straight fatigue cost (each +5%/fatigue). This is effectively a very limited version of Godlike EE with a fixed modifier (Will-1 roll) and no roll. -80% on Will for that might have been too generous, but it's also a very limited application. It misses the real benefit (or potential abuse) of Godlike EE you get by multiplying the fatigue used by the Will penalty.

[Kallatari]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Offering Will +25 (Only for Extra-Effort/Stunts, -80%) [25] & No nuisance rolls, Extra Effort! (Wildcard Perk [5] for 30 points just feels too cheap.

Originally Posted by naloth

-80% sounds too generous for that. Extra effort is something you can invoke anytime so using it for *any* EE/stunt (even any godlike stunt) is probably closer to 50% of the value on Will making that a -20% limit.

The methodology is the correct one for using the Extra Effort rules as is, except that you don't have to roll. You can debate whether -80% is the right value, of course. Myself, I'd lean toward -60% so that it costs 2/level of Will bonus to rolls, giving it a balanced feel with Acute Senses at 2/level. But other than that feeling of matching, I have no strong evidence it's the right value either.

Originally Posted by naloth

What I was suggesting was trading the penalized Will rolls (-1 per 5%) for straight fatigue cost (each +5%/fatigue). This is effectively a very limited version of Godlike EE with a fixed modifier (Will-1 roll) and no roll. -80% on Will for that might have been too generous, but it's also a very limited application. It misses the real benefit (or potential abuse) of Godlike EE you get by multiplying the fatigue used by the Will penalty.

I'd call this a Perk. Cost Fatigue is a -5% per 1 FP limitation on advantages. Reliable, to give a +1 bonus to your roll (thus cancelling the penalty) is +5% per +1. So it balances out. In an advantage, it would have not cost. I think it's fair to just say Perk (Exchange FP for Penalties to Extra Effort Rolls) [1].

With that in mind, without any penalties to the Extra Effort Roll, you maybe don't need the +25 Will. As only a 16 is needed for rolling with No Nuisance Effects, an "average" person would need +6 Will (Only Extra Effort, -60%) [12], Perk (No Nuisance Rolls (Extra Effort!)) [5], and Perk (Exchange FP for Penalties for Extra Effort) [1], for a total cost of 18 points.

This only addresses the -1 per 5% bonus penalty. It does not address the penalty for not being at full FP gives you, so it's possible that would still bring you down to a level where you would need to make a roll. Maybe again Perk (Rule Exemption: No penalty to Extra Effort rolls for not being at full Fatigue) [1], bringing it to 19. Just to make a nice round number, Perk (Will counts as 10 for EE rolls, regardless of actual Will attribute) [1]; this also has the benefits of dealing with penalties to Will from spells, powers, etc, that might lower Will below 10 in which case the roll would be against less than 16, in which case the No Nuisance Rolls would no longer apply.

That gets you a nice value of 20 points. It takes a few liberties accounted for with Perks - which not everyone may agree are worth only a Perk - but seems like a reasonable number for the trait in question. It's not giving you a free ability, as you still have to pay FP, so I think it's balanced.

[Plane]

I don't know how to do it w/ basic Extra Effort (from Campaigns) but via the Powers application, it makes me wonder:

1) you can apply Talent to your EE rolls for a power

2) presumably you can also apply the bonus from the "Reliable" enhancement, if doing EE for that power

3) would that mean that like Reliable (treating EE roll as an ability roll) having the "No Roll Required" enhancement on a power would allow you to use that for Extra Effort and Stunts (Temporary Enhancements or Using abilities at Default) ?