Applying cost adjustments to attribute purchases

[Albagyrion]

Hello,

I am looking at the GURPS 4E character creation process and see that such things as Size Modifier and No Fine Manipulators can make purchasing, for example, Strength more cheaply. My question is whether this cheaper cost is applied during the initial character build, or only later in the character's lifecycle as character points accrue. I suppose this begs the larger question about the sequence of character development steps, if one exists.

Thanks for indulging this basic question. GURPS is new to me, although I've been roleplaying since the early 80s.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Albagyrion

Hello,

I am looking at the GURPS 4E character creation process and see that such things as Size Modifier and No Fine Manipulators can make purchasing, for example, Strength more cheaply. My question is whether this cheaper cost is applied during the initial character build, or only later in the character's lifecycle as character points accrue. I suppose this begs the larger question about the sequence of character development steps, if one exists.

Thanks for indulging this basic question. GURPS is new to me, although I've been roleplaying since the early 80s.

Welcome to GURPS!

The Limitations you are referring to apply to to the CP cost at any time. An attribute or advantage will cost the same in play as it does during character creation.

[Albagyrion]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

Welcome to GURPS!

The Limitations you are referring to apply to to the CP cost at any time. An attribute or advantage will cost the same in play as it does during character creation.

Perfect, thank you. That makes sense to me; I would think that one could fiddle around with the character design (at least half the fun for some players, in my experience) and that would make the accounting difficult if the cost varied with the timing/sequence of applying various traits.

Best.

[Varyon]

One point of note - generally, if something happens during play that would reduce the point value of certain traits, you don't get a retroactive discount. For example, if you have ST 15 and have your hands chopped off, you don't get to retroactively apply the -30% Limitation for No Fine Manipulators to your ST (getting back [15]), just like you don't get any points back for gaining No Fine Manipulators [-30]. This is also true if you get hit with a curse that makes you increase in size to SM+1. If you later purchase more ST, however, you should be able to claim the No Fine Manipulators or Size discounts on the new levels, however.

That's generally a niche situation, however - most players would retire a character who suffered such a crippling injury as losing both hands (unless there were options - regeneration, prosthetics, etc - to at least mitigate the problem), and permanent boosts to SM aren't exactly a common thing.

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Varyon

One point of note - generally, if something happens during play that would reduce the point value of certain traits, you don't get a retroactive discount. For example, if you have ST 15 and have your hands chopped off, you don't get to retroactively apply the -30% Limitation for No Fine Manipulators to your ST (getting back [15]), just like you don't get any points back for gaining No Fine Manipulators [-30]. This is also true if you get hit with a curse that makes you increase in size to SM+1. If you later purchase more ST, however, you should be able to claim the No Fine Manipulators or Size discounts on the new levels, however.

That's generally a niche situation, however - most players would retire a character who suffered such a crippling injury as losing both hands (unless there were options - regeneration, prosthetics, etc - to at least mitigate the problem), and permanent boosts to SM aren't exactly a common thing.

You should reduce the cost of the existing trait, you just would not get the points back to spend, they are simply lost. The point value of the character would drop accordingly, so the math would still work out identical to a newly created character with the same traits.

So your ST 20 character that lost his hands would note the (No Fine Manipulators, -40%) limitation on the full ST value on the sheet, and the CP cost of his +10 ST goes down from 100 points to 60 points, and you would add "No Fine Manipulators [-30] to the disadvantage list, and you would reduce your CP total by 70 points.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

the math would still work out identical to a newly created character with the same traits.

That is a key thing to remember. In general, in 4e rules, it doesn't matter when or in what order you get traits. The points should work out the same.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

You should reduce the cost of the existing trait, you just would not get the points back to spend, they are simply lost. The point value of the character would drop accordingly, so the math would still work out identical to a newly created character with the same traits.

Personally, I feel this approach can lead to some confusion; I'd be more inclined to note the gained/lost traits without a shift in point value. First off, this prevents needing to recalculate the value of Allies/Enemies (they don't get weaker just because you lost your arms). Secondly, if the possibility of regaining whatever was lost exists (regrowing lost limbs, replacing them with prosthetics ones of various levels of functionality, etc), this serves as a good reminder not to charge character points for this (a character who starts play with One Arm, then goes to a "black clinic" to get an experimental cybernetic prosthetic, has to pay back the difference between One Arm and One Arm (Mitigator: Cyborg Arm); a character who loses an arm in play and goes to that same clinic for the same prosthetic shouldn't have to pay any character points, unless the new arm has additional functionality compared to the fleshy one that was lost).

[the_matrix_walker]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Personally, I feel this approach can lead to some confusion; I'd be more inclined to note the gained/lost traits without a shift in point value. First off, this prevents needing to recalculate the value of Allies/Enemies (they don't get weaker just because you lost your arms). Secondly, if the possibility of regaining whatever was lost exists (regrowing lost limbs, replacing them with prosthetics ones of various levels of functionality, etc), this serves as a good reminder not to charge character points for this (a character who starts play with One Arm, then goes to a "black clinic" to get an experimental cybernetic prosthetic, has to pay back the difference between One Arm and One Arm (Mitigator: Cyborg Arm); a character who loses an arm in play and goes to that same clinic for the same prosthetic shouldn't have to pay any character points, unless the new arm has additional functionality compared to the fleshy one that was lost).

As long as it's understood that "this approach" is the RAW as detailed on Page B291.

If you want to do it differently, that's fine, but I don't think any GM or player is going to forget that the limb (or what have you) was lost during play.

But we have a person trying to learn the rules, so I think the best way to respond is with the rules as written. Noting that you like to do things differently is fine, but your initial post may have been misleading to those who don't know you're doing your own thing with that post.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by the_matrix_walker

As long as it's understood that "this approach" is the RAW as detailed on Page B291.

If you want to do it differently, that's fine, but I don't think any GM or player is going to forget that the limb (or what have you) was lost during play.

But we have a person trying to learn the rules, so I think the best way to respond is with the rules as written. Noting that you like to do things differently is fine, but your initial post may have been misleading to those who don't know you're doing your own thing with that post.

Fair enough. I personally found the bit about reducing the character's point value somewhat-confusing when I was first going through the GURPS books (mainly in the form of being uncertain how Ally/Dependent/Enemy/Patron would interact, and if finding a way to later get your arm back or whatever should require spending more character points), but you're correct that this is indeed the Rules as Written.

[Albagyrion]

Originally Posted by Varyon

One point of note - generally, if something happens during play that would reduce the point value of certain traits, you don't get a retroactive discount. For example, if you have ST 15 and have your hands chopped off, you don't get to retroactively apply the -30% Limitation for No Fine Manipulators to your ST (getting back [15]), just like you don't get any points back for gaining No Fine Manipulators [-30]. This is also true if you get hit with a curse that makes you increase in size to SM+1. If you later purchase more ST, however, you should be able to claim the No Fine Manipulators or Size discounts on the new levels, however.

That's generally a niche situation, however - most players would retire a character who suffered such a crippling injury as losing both hands (unless there were options - regeneration, prosthetics, etc - to at least mitigate the problem), and permanent boosts to SM aren't exactly a common thing.

I think I understand this, as I get a better understanding of Chapter 9 info regarding in-play gains and losses. As I understand it, your scenario of a sudden loss of hands would not give the character any new points to spend, either from the new condition or the adjustment to cost applied retroactively. The in-play amputation just sucks and lowers the CP of the character. However, any future purchases of ST would be at a price adjusted for the No Fine Manipulators disadvantage as long as that situation persisted.

There is a bit of a thinking adjustment when moving from games such as AD&D, D&D3E/Pathfinder, and Rolemaster to GURPS. It is quite a departure in premise, and one that has a lot of attractive features. The Character Points/Power Level paradigm has very specific game effects as well as some more subtle aspects and implications. It allows for a lot of tuning of both stakes and flavor, but places a lot of responsibility on a GM. (Not a bad thing.)