[Dungeon Fantasy] The Wilderness of Hell

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Balor Patch

You are familiar with the Nordlond books, published by Gaming Ballistic, I trust? Doug mixes a lot of cultural details with his DFRPG.

There's also Cold Shard Mountains, which is a region overview for DF.

Oooh, neat. I like Cold Shard Mountains. Nordlond seems okay, but I don't care too much for the faux-Vikings. I've played that to death already in Skyrim (I still play this... on both PC and Switch)! I would probably dig into it for the crunch and toss the fluff.

Is there adventures published for the Cold Shard Mountains? What I want is adventures that references the setting book. Interweave the material, ya know?

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

Oooh, neat. I like Cold Shard Mountains. Nordlond seems okay, but I don't care too much for the faux-Vikings. I've played that to death already in Skyrim (I still play this... on both PC and Switch)! I would probably dig into it for the crunch and toss the fluff.

Is there adventures published for the Cold Shard Mountains? What I want is adventures that references the setting book. Interweave the material, ya know?

If you look at the Wellsprings of Creation article in Dungeon Fantasy Collected, it actually does place the two big Dungeon Fantasy adventures that had been published at the time into the context of a broader world, which is nice. Though I have mixed feelings about the setting—it handwaves a lot of fantasy RPG tropes by saying depopulated areas spontaneously generate new civilizations, while civilizations that get too advanced inevitably face catastrophe (justifying a state of affairs that one might otherwise think would be short-lived), but it never delves into the implications of these world-building decisions. We don't know what it's like to be spontaneously generated in the way we know what it's like to be a Banestorm victim. Nor is it clear how you'd play out PCs being caught in an area where the sky has suddenly started raining fire (something the article calls a "well-documented meteorological phenomenon"). While there's some potential for interesting stories there, those as written those elements seem unsatisfying even as hand-waves, since they raise at least as many questions as they answer.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tyneras

I rather like the idea of demonic "plants" being mindless, immobile demons!

Or you could have plants be damned souls that scream in agony when you harvest their fruit or whatever.

[Tymathee]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

If you look at the Wellsprings of Creation article in Dungeon Fantasy Collected, it actually does place the two big Dungeon Fantasy adventures that had been published at the time into the context of a broader world, which is nice. Though I have mixed feelings about the setting—it handwaves a lot of fantasy RPG tropes by saying depopulated areas spontaneously generate new civilizations, while civilizations that get too advanced inevitably face catastrophe (justifying a state of affairs that one might otherwise think would be short-lived), but it never delves into the implications of these world-building decisions. We don't know what it's like to be spontaneously generated in the way we know what it's like to be a Banestorm victim. Nor is it clear how you'd play out PCs being caught in an area where the sky has suddenly started raining fire (something the article calls a "well-documented meteorological phenomenon"). While there's some potential for interesting stories there, those as written those elements seem unsatisfying even as hand-waves, since they raise at least as many questions as they answer.

The gross simplification of the dungeon crawling experience is actually what really drew me to GURPS's DF line. Like a parody of the more popular DnD. The humor baked into the crunch (and little fluff) really makes that apparent too. I guess what I'd really like is more setting than what DF calls for by default, but not something so fully fleshed out that I as the GM can't have some freedom to fill in the blanks. Wellsprings of Creation just sounds real gravy to me. Where someone might think it littered with lazy setting design, I see a coloring book page ready to be colorized.

I like silliness and humor in my games as much as I like grim and dour fantasy, so the handwavium within may help to facilitate the lighter former. The "Comic Fantasy" genre tickles me pink! I think that's roughly where I want my DF games to be in tone and feel. The RAW of DF lends itself naturally to it too. "To cross ice or similar, make a DX or DX-based Skiing roll at the combat penalty for bad footing – usually -2. Failure means you fall; roll DX-4 to stand up before you can try again (this is when the ice weasels attack)."

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Tymathee

The gross simplification of the dungeon crawling experience is actually what really drew me to GURPS's DF line. Like a parody of the more popular DnD. The humor baked into the crunch (and little fluff) really makes that apparent too. I guess what I'd really like is more setting than what DF calls for by default, but not something so fully fleshed out that I as the GM can't have some freedom to fill in the blanks. Wellsprings of Creation just sounds real gravy to me. Where someone might think it littered with lazy setting design, I see a coloring book page ready to be colorized.

I like silliness and humor in my games as much as I like grim and dour fantasy, so the handwavium within may help to facilitate the lighter former. The "Comic Fantasy" genre tickles me pink! I think that's roughly where I want my DF games to be in tone and feel. The RAW of DF lends itself naturally to it too. "To cross ice or similar, make a DX or DX-based Skiing roll at the combat penalty for bad footing – usually -2. Failure means you fall; roll DX-4 to stand up before you can try again (this is when the ice weasels attack)."

Jokes are fine, and I do appreciate sufficiently clever handwaves. I'm more annoyed by the lack of support for PC interaction with multiple major facets of the setting—and many players will try to interact with the craziest facets of your setting once they catch wind of them, just because they can.

Now that I think about it, though, there's no reason we couldn't see such support in the future. Let's see a published Dungeon Fantasy adventure where the PCs must simultaneously contend with confused, spontaneously generated barbarians and fire raining down on them for no adequately explained reason.

[schmeelke]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Hellish terrain might also randomly move, blocking movement, confusing navigation, or just creating pitfalls.

Maps become progressively useless after a time...

[maximara]

I prefer the idea of Hell seen in things like Judgement Night, A Nice Place to Visit, and Hell's Bells (Night Gallery) where hell is more a state of mind rather than actual physical torture.

On a side note there was this comic story of a doctor who went to Heaven but was bored and using a back stairway descended into Hell where he did the same thing he did in life (crusading against horrid conditions, etc)

This drove the Devil and his minions so crazy they sent the man back to Earth. When asked about what it was like the comic ends with "His mind drifts back to the flames and sulfur"

Doctor: It was Heaven.

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by schmeelke

Maps become progressively useless after a time...

Some degree of that seems appropriate for a place with exceptionally high levels of volcanism anywhere. In the extreme version, it's probably good if the demons have some way to avoid getting lost—perhaps "prevent people from getting lost" is an ability of the most powerful demon lords, who use it to keep their subjects in line.

Originally Posted by maximara

I prefer the idea of Hell seen in things like Judgement Night, A Nice Place to Visit, and Hell's Bells (Night Gallery) where hell is more a state of mind rather than actual physical torture.

On a side note there was this comic story of a doctor who went to Heaven but was bored and using a back stairway descended into Hell where he did the same thing he did in life (crusading against horrid conditions, etc)

This drove the Devil and his minions so crazy they sent the man back to Earth. When asked about what it was like the comic ends with "His mind drifts back to the flames and sulfur"

Doctor: It was Heaven.

If I had to summarize my vision in the OP, I would say it's not so much "Hell is a place of physical torture" as "Hell is relentlessly hostile to all life"—something that gives demons "home field advantage" there, because demons aren't technically alive. I would argue that physical hazards work better for an RPG adventure location, though it is possible to mix physical hazards with psychological torment, say if the whole place is physically unpleasant but down in the dungeons, the torment inflicted on damned souls is largely psychological in nature. From an adventurer's point of view, such a room could serve as a "trap" that forces you to get stuck reliving your worst moments if you fail the Will roll.

[Prime Evil]

I'd love to see a custom version of Hell that you could drop into any campaign with fantasy elements. It would be part of a pocket multiverse (p.B529). This pocket multiverse might contain various heavens and hells. You could attach the cosmology to any myth parallel (p.B527). This means you could use it with everything from DFRPG or Monster Hunters. You could even use it with GURPS Locations: Hellsgate. Or maybe occultists from Reich-5 could summon something nasty from this hell in the Bavarian Alps (Think Castle Wolfenstein / Doom / Hellboy).

[Michael Thayne]

Originally Posted by Prime Evil

I'd love to see a custom version of Hell that you could drop into any campaign with fantasy elements. It would be part of a pocket multiverse (p.B529). This pocket multiverse might contain various heavens and hells. You could attach the cosmology to any myth parallel (p.B527). This means you could use it with everything from DFRPG or Monster Hunters. You could even use it with GURPS Locations: Hellsgate. Or maybe occultists from Reich-5 could summon something nasty from this hell in the Bavarian Alps (Think Castle Wolfenstein / Doom / Hellboy).

This can be tricky to do because different settings envision Hell in fundamentally different ways. I consulted GURPS Locations: Hellsgate when writing the OP, but even that differed from many books in the Dungeon Fantasy line by giving all demons DR 5 (Heat/fire only). If you're trying to extrapolate what Hell is like from Hellsgate, you could easily conclude that all of Hell resembles the Fire Garden (p. 12), which does 1d-1 burning damage per second to everyone inside. That would kill many of the weaker Dungeon Fantasy demons in short order. Of course, you could assume that only parts of Hell resemble the Fire Garden, if you want to use both Hellsgate and the weaker DF demons, but I think this illustrates how fast things can get tricky.