The other challenges of space

[cosmicfish]

A lot of this depends on the level of technology and expertise they brought with them, and that in turn depends on the details of the exodus. If the governments built ten ships to save the best of humanity, then the people would generally be of high competency and the equipment would be of high quality and quantity. Conversely, if hundreds or thousands of "lifeboats" were built then the people on board would probably be of a more average demographic and the equipment would be spread thin. Consider also the time between the exodus decision and the actual departure - was there time for real planning and testing, and to appropriately man each expedition, or are the ships manned by whoever showed up, built with whatever equipment was on hand?

A few other notes:

Originally Posted by Dustin
I have a hard time imagining an automated cryogenic system that doesn't track time somehow.

Again, see my earlier post - a ship would be a complex system, and it is not outside the realm of possibility that a hastily built system could maintain a daily schedule yet fail to accurately track the date.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin
Even if it did there would be some astronomical way to measure elapsed time. Proper motions of nearby stars, relative positions of global clusters around the galactic nucleus, etc. Whatever the time scale there will be some way to measure it at least roughly.

Originally Posted by starslayer
Also- they should know roughly how fast they were going and just be able to extrapolate the time; doubly so since a second ship showed up- they should have a relatively good number if computer moddeling still exists, or a general number if it does not and they have to rely on traditional astonomy.

All of this depends on these ships having (1) people who understand all of this and make the calculations, (2) a reliable method measuring the position and velocities of the ships in flight (probably a stretch for a novice interstellatr culture), (3) tools for making measurements and calculations (did they bring astronomical telescopes?), and (4) databases of all the appropriate references needed. It is entirely possible that some ships would know exactly what date is was, some might not have any idea, and several others might disagree.

Originally Posted by starslayer
IE- we were traveling at .02c, based on visible star patterns this location is 400 light years away: it has been ~20,000 years since we departed.

No. Your velocity on an STL starship is highly variable, as is your acceleration, plus it is all path dependent. Consider this: if your ship has mass M0 at launch and you consume mass F of fuel every T seconds, then the mass M of your ship at any time t is M0 - Ft/T ... assuming you neither jetisson any waste nor accumulate any additional mass (like dust, collided objects, etc.). Assuming your propulsion system has a perfectly uniform thrust Thr, then your acceleration is Thr/M = Thr / (M0 - Ft/T), and your velocity V is the integral of this with respect to time V = -(T*Thr/F)ln(M0T/F - t), and the position X along your path is the integral of that. How many people on your ship are up for that?

Originally Posted by starslayer
Second problem; even assuming a massive population boom for 14 generations, assuming everyone started breading at ~20 years of age, and then proceeded to have 5 children a piece and no one dies, ever, your population is: 20,000 *5, *14= 1,400,000

Again, no. Assuming 20,000 people initially, a 20-year generation, and every person producing an average 2.5 children per generation (momentarily ignoring the longevity issue), then 14 generations would be 20000*2.5^(t/20) = 5.9 billion people after 275 years. Going by more modest assumptions, a 1% growth rate (current world) would give a population of 300,000, while a 3% growth rate common to much of the third world would give a population of ~68 million.

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2
This could make sense if you mean hand-weapons, but if you've got starflight tech, STL or FTL either one, then heavier weaponized lasers (or something equivalent) probably will exist. They aren't superscience, they're on the horizon for us now, and any starflight technology will have the energy sources to power them.

They may exist, but did they necessarily make it onto the ships? If all the engineering talent was working on the drives and cryosystems, who would be working on lasers? And who would bring them on board?

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

They make war, mine, grow food and maintain advanced technology. What more would they need to be functional?

Makes Space Rednecks into a civilization of their own, eh? ;)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Given sufficient automation, it's plausible, especially in 'matural colonial' environments.

That's not low-pop. That's high-pop, with a large percentage of that population being robots (SAI/LAI/NAI/Expert System is another matter, though).

[Langy]

I don't think so. 30,000 people are not going to be building a space program.

Who said anything about building a space program? They did come in on spaceships, you know. It isn't out of the realm of possibility that they left those ships up there, or they had parasite ships attached to the motherships.

[modred11]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

Space craziness is a question mark. We don't have much real data on this subject except from long ocean voyages and remote outposts and the like. It probably can happen...but if the people picking the crews are even modestly competent, it probably shouldn't happen often. I could easily imagine, for ex, that one of the training stages for the crews for these ships would be living in an enclosed environment with other potential recruits for a year, or something of the sort to weed out unsuitable personalities.

I was actually watching a episode of Myth Busters last night about Cabin Fever (probably a re-run). Two people were each locked in a cabin on their own and wouldn't leave for several days, during a snow-storm in Alaska. They were only there for three or four days before they started showing signs of Cabin Fever, nothing too drastic.

• They were lazy, constantly napping, not doing much of anything after the first day.
• they were forgetful, sometimes forgetting to take the mental acuity tests that were the whole point of the process.
• they became very irritable and one of them was very nervous and didn't sleep well.

Their conclusion was that it was caused by the lack of toys and luxury-type stuff, like coffee and computers & stuff. Cause they'd taken away their phones and watches and everything before putting them in there, so they didn't have anything to do at all.

Something like this might occur in space, during emergencies and stuff. In an episode of Star Trek the Next Generation the ship was damaged in such a way that various parts of it were blocked off from one another, and parts of the ship were without power. Captain Picard was stuck with a group of five year olds (a fate worse then death. "Disaster").

[cybermancer2k1]

Well, I don’t have sufficient scientific credentials to join in shooting holes in your background, so I’ll just try to answer your original post (imagine!). Just a few ideas:

The Skellions are obviously going to cause a lot of trouble for your colonists. I’m thinking one of the first things they’ll try to do is infiltrate the groundside installations to learn more about their rivals or sabotage their works. And it doesn’t sound like the Skels are above kidnapping colonials for use as slaves and…well, “breedin’ stock.” Are all the Skellions hostile? What happens when one of their factions decided to treat with the colonists? What will the others do? And is that faction actually as friendly as they seem? (At this point, the obligatory “Romeo & Juliet” scenario rears its pretty little head.)

Speaking of breeding stock, cross-breeding colonial animals with the native animals could still be a problem. What if the Seeders made some subtle little change in the animals they imported from Earth? Would cross-breeding colonial critters solve husbandry and food problems, or create microbiological and genetic horrors that the colonists will have to contend with? Not just the animals; what about plant cross-pollination? And insect activity?

The planet itself could be a very dangerous adversary. Aside from the usual meteorological/geological problems, what if some subtle threat were to manifest itself, say every few thousand years, the local wildlife goes through a period of mutation of some sort that renders them incompatible (say, koalas become ferocious, or the rabbits are no longer edible). And if it’s a planet anywhere near the size of Earth, there are going to be vast tracts yet unexplored even after nearly 300 years. You could put anything in your outback, from unmapped swamps to man-eating plants.

Four cryo ships showing up at this one lonely planet is way against the odds. What if the planet is not only attracting Earth ships, but there are…others…on the way as well. Presumably, the colonists will intercept these newcomers while still in space. What to do about them? Let them land? Send them back whence they came? Vie with the Skels for them?

What if the planet is attracting more than just ships? What if something about its orbit or gravity makes it Asteroid Central? The colonists will have their hands full fighting off Skellions while trying to get asteroid monitoring stations up and running. And what if the computer linking all those posts either crashes or decides it’s not going to work for puny humans anymore?

What happens when someone in one of the cities starts thinking that a new outbreak of something (chickenpox? Flu?) is actually a new version of the Rage Virus? Worse, what if someone’s family actually smuggled out a vial of that horrible disease when they left Earth -- maybe for originally benign purposes -- but the latest descendant has recently become psychotic and remembers the Vial?

Last, we humans tend to be a fractious lot. Human history suggests that all won’t be all harmony and kumbaya. What happens when the vegetarians decide that the planet’s fauna is off limits and take up arms, or the miners decide that strip-mining is the more efficient way to go, or Joe’s Coffee decides that only his coffee should be served in Equator City and all rivals must be burned, or (dare I open this can of worms) the Christians, the Muslims, and the Jews decide to pick up their strife where they left off? (Conversely as to this last, what if you take a page from The Book of Eli and have a group dedicated to restoring religion to an atheistic/agnostic society?)

Hope these help.

[MattStriker]

I've got a similar background for my own space opera game, maybe you can find some useful ideas in this...


Humans discover FTL by accident (obliterating a chunk of New Jersey, but nobody missed that) in the mid-21st century and begin to explore the solar system in earnest (FTL is still fairly slow and untested over long distances at this point...interstellar probes are being sent, but there's no manned interstellar flight yet).

From my 'history file':

2067: The ESA's ARES mission to Mars discovers several ruined structures. The ARES findings are kept secret to prevent global mass hysteria.

2068: ESA HERMES mission locates another, better preserved ruin near the north pole of Mercury and begins excavations.

2069: A researcher at the Mercury site enters an underground complex filled with apparently still-operational machinery and accidentally activates an unknown device. All contact with the Mercury expedition is lost as the sun enters an unprecedented period of high activity.
Solar flares of terrifying power lash Earth, interrupting global satellite communications and causing a global panic.

2070: As the power and frequency of the solar flares increase it becomes increasingly clear that this process will eventually render Earth and the inner solar system uninhabitable. The Ark Project is initiated.

2073: Deep-space probes reveal several potentially inhabitable planets within fifty light years of Earth. Construction of the Arks proceeds slower than planned due to the incessant solar flares. Most of Earth's industrial capacity is turned towards Ark construction.

2075: Ark I is launched, carrying a quarter million people in Legacy sleeper pods.

2076: Ark XIV is destroyed in an accident near the orbit of Jupiter.

2079: The final wave of Arks is approaching completion. Less than 100 million people remain on Earth. As the solar activity reaches a new peak, several Arks are sent out half-finished.

2080: The Exodus Event. As the final wave of Arks is entering hyperspace, alien devices on Mercury, Mars and Venus power up. All vessels within a 500 light year radius currently in hyperspace are thrown back into the normal universe. All hyperspatial sensors within a far larger radius are overloaded and cease to function. When the smoke clears, the Sol system is gone. Not even interstellar gases or dust remain behind. Most Arks are thrown off-course, some are lost entirely. Contact among the Ark fleets ends.

2081: An Ark fleet reaches the Corona system and discovers an earthlike planet. Corona Prime becomes the first self-sustained human settlement after the Exodus. Later in the same year the colonies at Xianshao, Palaio and Tabitha are founded in close proximity to Corona, although there is no contact between the colonies yet.

2085: Human colonies begin to produce their own high-tech goods. Corona Prime begins construction of a shipyard.

2087: Palaio, founded in a resource-poor system, begins to scout neighboring systems.

2090: The Corona Shipyard produces its first FTL-capable scout vessel. Plans for warship construction are hurried along after the discovery of coded hyperband transmissions originating from somewhere within 80 LY of Corona.

2094: Palaio colony scout vessels enter the Arigam system, claimed by the Issak'kar empire. Issak'kar ships destroy two scout ships and follow the remaining one to Palaio. The colony at Palaio is almost entirely wiped out, a few refugees escape from the system.

2095: Issak'kar forces locate Xianshao colony and launch an attack. A spirited defense by Xianshao asteroid mining vessels deflects the first wave. Over the next months, the Issak'kar fleets lay siege to the colony while remaining Xianshao scout vessels desperately search for assistance against the alien threat.

2096: Xianshao falls to the Issak'kar advance, genocide commences. Refugees from Palaio and Xianshao reach Corona space. Corona accelerates their warship development program and begins to send scouts to find other human colonies.

2097: Issak'kar forces wipe out the last remaining human survivors on Xianshao. Corona scout vessels contact Lares, Tabitha and Ronin colonies...all begin to prepare for war against the Issak'kar.

2101: In February, Issak'kar scouting vessels enter the Corona system. They report an almost undefended human colony, unaware that the quickly-growing Corona fleet is stationed on the far side of the planet's second moon. An Issak'kar task force consisting mostly of troop transports is sent to destroy the colony. In late March, the Issak'kar warships clash with Corona orbital defenses while the troop transports hang back near the system's fifth planet, Amethys. Using a risky 'short-jump' FTL approach, the Corona fleet manages to catch the troop transports by surprise. The Battle of Amethys ends in a crushing defeat for the invaders. Issak'kar warships withdraw from the system. Two more attempts to dislodge the defenders of Corona fail as well.

2103: Ships from Lares, Tabitha and Ronin begin to reinforce Corona's fleet. Scout vessels from Tabitha make peaceful contact with the Mantak.

2104: Mantak sell pulse cannon technology to the humans. Ships are hastily refitted to make use of these new weapons.

2105: The war reaches its turning point as the Issak'kar emperor, maddened by the continuing stalemate at Corona, commits the majority of his fleet to a massive, all-out strike on the colony in June. However, a combined effort from all four colonial fleets combined with several Mantak vessels manages to not only hold the line but critically damage the emperor's flagship 'Hand of God'. With the emperor gone, the fleet withdraws. Over the next months, Issak'kar command structure disintegrates as various warlords struggle to fill the power vacuum. The human colonies use this time to rebuild their forces and make contact with three other Ark worlds, who promptly join the war effort.

2107: Ships from the Corona Coalition liberate Xianshao.

2110: The coalition liberates Palaio and defeats an Issak'kar warlord at Arigam.

2111: The Issak'kar main fleet base at Sargorum falls to the human advance. With six Issak'kar colonies destroyed along with most of the fleet, several Issak'kar warlords sue for peace. Others vow to continue the fight to the bitter end, and are predictably wiped out.

2113: The Issak'kar war ends, and the Issak'kar empire ceases to exist. Individual worlds of the empire form their own governments, which frequently wage war on each other.

2114: General Rashid Taiir Singh of Corona dissolves the already largely irrelevant civilian government in a bloodless coup and, on October 17th, forms the Human Empire. Taiir Singh is massively popular and will later be hailed as the archetype of the benevolent dictator.

Some key points:

1.) Ark ships hold a quarter million people plus supplies each, and are launched in groups. This is far more likely to create a viable population at the new colony than just 20k.
2.) Arks are designed to be converted into colonial infrastructure, both orbital and on the ground.
3.) The Exodus event scatters humanity pretty widely, breaking off contact between the colony fleets. Some are blown many hundreds of LY off course and still remain lost in the game period, 500 years after the Exodus. One is only rediscovered (in the form of a small, self-sufficient colony) 20 years before the game era.
4.) Earth being entirely gone, plus the lack of contact with other fleets, forces colonies to become self-sufficient very, very quickly.

[Johnny1A.2]

Originally Posted by Zed

Maybe the ships had a year 100,000 problem. ;)

Also, if the ships were shut down completely in interstellar space and reactivated when there was enough light energy available, chronometers would be off.

A properly-designed time-keeping system could be made to work with trivial power, or even to self-supply power from radioactive decay.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2

A properly-designed time-keeping system could be made to work with trivial power, or even to self-supply power from radioactive decay.

On the other hand if we are using a prototype FTL system in a one way trip, then the time you arrive in could be any time in the past or the future. Of course if they know where they are going they'd still be able to figure out when they arrived unless we erase their computers so they can't figure out how much the stars have moved. Or send them some place completely different from the course they set. That requires outside intervention.

[Langy]

On the other hand if we are using a prototype FTL system in a one way trip, then the time you arrive in could be any time in the past or the future. Of course if they know where they are going they'd still be able to figure out when they arrived unless we erase their computers so they can't figure out how much the stars have moved. Or send them some place completely different from the course they set. That requires outside intervention.

Or for their FTL navigation to still be in its infancy stage. The ship could jump around to random star systems until it finds a habitable planet, for example.