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Old 12-03-2021, 12:27 AM   #1
Shaira
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Hi everyone,

I've been reading Melee and ITL trying to find a reference to "getting inside someone's defenses" in melee combat. What I mean is this: if a human armed with, say, a short sword, is fighting someone with a pole weapon, or a large opponent like a giant with a massive and long club, he's initially at a serious disadvantage because he simply can't get close enough to strike - his opponent is "fending him off" with either a long-reach weapon or with a large weapon plus naturally long reach (the giant). BUT, if that human with a short sword manages to get past that long-reach attack / defense combo, to get "inside his opponent's defenses" and close enough to strike, the situation is suddenly reversed; the pole-arm wielder or giant suddenly has difficulty attacking an opponent at very close quarters who's busy getting stabby with a close-work weapon.

I'd kind of assumed this situation would be covered in the combat rules, but I'm having trouble finding any kind of reference, and I'd assumed it would be a key part of tactics in those kind of combats. Am I missing something?

Cheers,

Sarah
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Old 12-03-2021, 02:04 AM   #2
Shaira
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

I've been gleaning through ITL looking for answers to the above, and I'm wondering if the "Pike" section on ITL p132 might hold a solution. I'm quoting the relevant paragraph, but I'm substituting "REACH ATTACK COMBATANT" for pikeman, as for my purposes this could also refer to a 3-hex giant with a massive club holding a human-sized figure at bay.

Quote:
"If (AN OPPONENT) moves through a hex the (REACH ATTACK COMBATANT) could have hit (see diagram), then the (REACH ATTACK COMBATANT) may take his attack then, during the movement phase. If he does so, he cannot attack again in that turn. Note that this means anyone... who charges a (REACH ATTACK COMBATANT) from in front will have to undergo an attack before he can strike at the (REACH ATTACK COMBATANT)."
The same section on ITL p131 says that a pike "cannot be used as a normal weapon to attack someone in an adjacent hex". By extrapolation, this could mean that my 3-hex giant with a massive club simply could not use that club to attack a 1-hex human-sized target in an adjacent hex. The giant would have to switch to fists or a more "close combat weapon" like a giant's short sword or dagger.

The main thing missing from the pike section (but maybe implied in the text) is that I feel the 3-hex giant with a really big club (or other reach attack combatant) should be able to attack a human-sized target at a 2-hex separation, and that human-sized target should be engaged at that point.

What does everyone think? I'm trying to extrapolate rather than house-rule as such, but it strikes me there's a possible solution to winkle out of the existing rules.

Cheers,

Sarah
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:52 AM   #3
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Hi Sarah,
There is a difference between house rules and special attacks of various creatures. Sounds to me you are creating a type of giant. I would not call this house rules.

About the standard giant in TFT, it has a 1 hex range with its club or even fist attack. I know some GMs have their own giants with a 2 hex range club.

As far as the pike reach attack goes, the reason it cannot attack adjacent hexes is due to the shape of the pike itself (very long and unable to stab someone too close). If you were to create a giant with a long club, I would say it can still be used verses adjacent hexes. But that would be your call.

BTW, there are creatures (uncle teeth) and melee weapons in TFT (spear/polearm jab & whip) that can attack more than 1 hex away, that are not thrown or missile. These do not engage at ranges more than 1 hex, nor do they employ the pike's attack during movement. But like I said, if this is something special about your giant, feel free to create this combat mechanic (2 hex range engaging) for it.
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Old 12-03-2021, 06:55 AM   #4
hcobb
 
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Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Note that a human can strike a rat in her own hex with a pike axe by RAW.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:21 AM   #5
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

It would take an asininely literal reading to figure that a pike axe can't attack an adjacent hex but can attack a critter in the same hex, surely. There are plenty of places where the informality of the rules leave a lot of ambiguity, but this isn't really high on my list.

The intention is clear here, even if the wording isn't quite explicit.


Sorry, I had my own asinine misreading. Henry said "pike axe" and I thought of the monstrous "pike".

I'm a bit thick.

Last edited by phiwum; 12-03-2021 at 07:52 AM.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:30 AM   #6
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Note that a human can strike a rat in her own hex with a pike axe by RAW.
Interesting point. I envision the fighter using the butt of the polearm. Not worth modifying the damage to match the situation given it is a ST 1 animal.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/butt_spike Whether they had a butt spike or not, it would be a killing blow on a rat. No need for additional rules here.
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Old 12-03-2021, 07:50 AM   #7
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Note that a human can't strike a giant in her own hex with a Pike Axe.


ITL 126: "He can declare himself in HTH combat with the giant, and try to hit him or draw his dagger"
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:12 AM   #8
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Note that a human can't strike a giant in her own hex with a Pike Axe.

ITL 126: "He can declare himself in HTH combat with the giant, and try to hit him or draw his dagger"
When in a hex with something your size or larger, you are down and in HTH. With a giant your other option is to attempt to roll out of the hex but if you stay in to engage in HTH you have dropped your pike axe, and thus will not be using it.

The butt spike is just part of the overall weapon. Just saying it is not unimaginable for it to be used on rats at close range.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:20 AM   #9
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: Human vs Giant / Pole-Axe - Close Combat Tactics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaira View Post
I've been gleaning through ITL looking for answers to the above, and I'm wondering if the "Pike" section on ITL p132 might hold a solution. I'm quoting the relevant paragraph, but I'm substituting "REACH ATTACK COMBATANT" for pikeman, as for my purposes this could also refer to a 3-hex giant with a massive club holding a human-sized figure at bay.



The same section on ITL p131 says that a pike "cannot be used as a normal weapon to attack someone in an adjacent hex". By extrapolation, this could mean that my 3-hex giant with a massive club simply could not use that club to attack a 1-hex human-sized target in an adjacent hex. The giant would have to switch to fists or a more "close combat weapon" like a giant's short sword or dagger.

The main thing missing from the pike section (but maybe implied in the text) is that I feel the 3-hex giant with a really big club (or other reach attack combatant) should be able to attack a human-sized target at a 2-hex separation, and that human-sized target should be engaged at that point.

What does everyone think? I'm trying to extrapolate rather than house-rule as such, but it strikes me there's a possible solution to winkle out of the existing rules.
Yes, if I wanted a giant with a really long weapon that could hit people 2 or 3 hexes out before they got closer, but was no good at close range, I would likely adapt the Pike rules, but modify the damage and likely the hexes covered, and what the options are for the giant at range 1, because it's a club not a pike.

(I might also consider how the Cavalry Lance rules say that to the side of the horse, the lance can only bash for a lot less damage. The club might be like that. Though a giant's unarmed attack is usually not bad either, so someone who ran inside the club's best reach might get kicked...)

That is, it wouldn't Engage someone trying to run past the club, but the club could attack during movement.

If you do want smaller figures to need to stop further out, you could do that too, but it would mean no one could try their luck to survive getting past the attack.

Of course, people might WANT to stop if attacked, so they get the option to dodge or defend, since that club is likely going to do lethal damage if it hits.
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