Who will replace the Hymenopterans?

[zot]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

Curious that anyone else should claim rights to the Hymenopterans, since they are basically (hah!) lifted directly from Jack Vance's "The Dragon Masters". If anyone has the rights to those, it's Jack's estate. I should know, I do work for them. ^_^

If Steve Jackson wants to include the beasts from "The Dragon Masters", or any other Vance materials, I am happy to facilitate communications there. Can't guarantee anything, but worth trying if there is interest.

I seem to remember Chitin: One listing Starship Troopers in the bibliography but I'm not sure about Dragon Masters.

[zot]

Originally Posted by zot

I seem to remember Chitin: One listing Starship Troopers in the bibliography but I'm not sure about Dragon Masters.

No Chitin: I acknowledges Dragon Masters first, right in the front of the game, then The Last Castle, and Hellstrom's Hive.

[Anthony]

Ant people are way too generic to be an issue; after all, the myrmidons were, according to Greek legend, made from a colony of ants...

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

lifted directly from Jack Vance's "The Dragon Masters".

The names are ripped off from Dragon Masters but the creatures are completely different: insectile rather than reptiles, non-technological, eusocial.

Lots of RPGS &c have had civilisations where the humans breed and direct non-mammals, e.g. knights riding dinosaurs. But a civilisation where non-human(oid)s breed and direct human(oid)s, as in Vance's Dragon Masters or Tschai/Planet of Adventure series, is creepy enough it would be fun to add.

[JLV]

Um...not "completely" different. Reskinning a creature as an insect, does not change the underlying nature of the creature itself. Besides, they admit in the credits (number one on the list) that Dragonmasters was a primary source).

[David Bofinger]

Originally Posted by JLV

Um...not "completely" different. Reskinning a creature as an insect, does not change the underlying nature of the creature itself.

Regardless of the process by which it happened, the underlying creatures are completely different.

• The dragons are owned by humans, who have selectively bred them from basics; the hymenopterans are independent (though they squat in abandoned human cities) and there's no suggestion humans had anything to do with their evolution.
• The hymenopterans are telepathically linked together under the command of basics; the dragons are bred from basics but don't include them, lack telepathy and are under the command of humans, and the basics have bred humans to serve them.
• The hymenopterans have no personal technology except perhaps swords; the basics possess energy weapons and spacecraft capable of travelling between planets.
• The basics see humans as genetic stock; the hymenopterans see humans as food.
• The hymenopterans are insectoid; the basics are reptilian.

I really don't see any significant similarity at all. If you scrubbed the names it would never occur to anyone they were related.

Besides, they admit in the credits (number one on the list) that Dragonmasters was a primary source).

Which is entirely appropriate, because the names were taken from Vance. But in TFT they are applied to creatures which bear no significant resemblance to their namesakes. I think Starship Troopers was a far greater inspiration for what the creatures are actually like, perhaps the main one.

As monsters for an RPG I think Vance's basic-controlled humans are more interesting than the TFT hymenopterans, which are in turn more interesting than Vance's human-controlled "dragons".

[JLV]

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Regardless of the process by which it happened, the underlying creatures are completely different.
. . .

I really don't see any significant similarity at all. If you scrubbed the names it would never occur to anyone they were related.

That's odd, then, because I saw the similarity at the age of 16 when I first picked up Chitin I. But you're certainly entitled to your own (apparently strongly held) opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

Which is entirely appropriate, because the names were taken from Vance. But in TFT they are applied to creatures which bear no significant resemblance to their namesakes. I think Starship Troopers was a far greater inspiration for what the creatures are actually like, perhaps the main one.

Though, of course, that completely ignores the list of credits published with the game Chitin I. But whatever.

Originally Posted by David Bofinger

As monsters for an RPG I think Vance's basic-controlled humans are more interesting than the TFT hymenopterans, which are in turn more interesting than Vance's human-controlled "dragons".

I actually agree with you here.

[Shadekeep]

While the narrative setting between The Dragon Masters and Chitin:I are very different, there is no denying the powerful influence of the former on the latter. Anything else is splitting hairs. It would be as though I wrote a book about a battle between farmyard animals, but gave them the names and attributes of hobbits, orcs, and nazgul. Could it really be said I wasn't borrowing heavily from Lord of the Rings, no matter how different my setting?

Irregardless of where one stands on this issue though, I'd still love to see Vance's dragons in the game. It would also be interesting to include the Basics and their army of specially bred humans. I have an idea in this direction, but am waiting to hear back from my friends at the Vance estate.

[Shadekeep]

Just heard back from Jack's son John, the executor of the Vance estate, and he is happy to allow the "dragons" from The Dragon Masters to appear in The Fantasy Trip. Obviously they would be used under permission of Jack's estate, and with credit to Jack. If Steve Jackson is reading this thread, I would be happy to speak directly with him as to how this might work.

I am further discussing with the Vance estate the idea of creating a full-blown Dragon Masters supplement book, with the beasts as well as the characters and settings from the story. This would include stats for TFT, and possibly other systems, depending on how the arrangement with SJG pans on the inclusion of Vance's Dragons directly into the system.

I'm excited, can you tell? ^_^

[tbeard1999]

Originally Posted by Shadekeep

Just heard back from Jack's son John, the executor of the Vance estate, and he is happy to allow the "dragons" from The Dragon Masters to appear in The Fantasy Trip. Obviously they would be used under permission of Jack's estate, and with credit to Jack. If Steve Jackson is reading this thread, I would be happy to speak directly with him as to how this might work.

I am further discussing with the Vance estate the idea of creating a full-blown Dragon Masters supplement book, with the beasts as well as the characters and settings from the story. This would include stats for TFT, and possibly other systems, depending on how the arrangement with SJG pans on the inclusion of Vance's Dragons directly into the system.

I'm excited, can you tell? ^_^

<golf clap>

Well played sir.