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Old 07-21-2010, 06:48 PM   #21
Tuoni
 
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Okay.

Why the caveat?

Keeping the analogy, that's like saying building Grunt the Tank is great -- but it's somewhat abusive if the party contains any thieves or mages or faces or sages that sold down their ST for points elsewhere, and that Grunt should only be okay in parties of at least Average ST (10). If Wealth is just another advantage -- which makes sense to me -- then why can't it be used to cover deliberate weaknesses in the rest of the group, just like any other niche advantage?
I think its a case of "You don't get the points if its not a disadvantage", and I agree. I won't force an advantage because of another PC's choice, but I will disallow a disadvantage. Ultimately, it would be up the GM if the player's access to party wealth is easy enough to void the disadvantage. If the group is always together, then probably so. If the PC's are routinely without access to each other's resources, then the disadvantage may still be valid.
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Old 07-21-2010, 10:05 PM   #22
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

So would you disallow selling down ST, or reduce the value, for characters that don't need ST much anyway (sort of like the prohibition on taboo traits that you weren't going to take)? Does the mage get full value for low ST even though the barbarian is going to do the fighting, take the damage, carry stuff for the mage, kick open the doors for him, and haul him out of the pits?
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Old 07-22-2010, 12:28 AM   #23
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
So would you disallow selling down ST, or reduce the value, for characters that don't need ST much anyway (sort of like the prohibition on taboo traits that you weren't going to take)? Does the mage get full value for low ST even though the barbarian is going to do the fighting, take the damage, carry stuff for the mage, kick open the doors for him, and haul him out of the pits?
More like dissallowing lowering ST if someone in the party have affliction(ST,permanent).

But in the end, it depend on the game.

In a d&d -like game, i would probably frown on having all players take dead broke and one rich player gearing them up.

In a cthulhu like investigator team, it is traditionnal to have a wealthy dilettante funding the investigation and travels of his fellow soon-to-be-mad investigators...

It is subjective. If it make sense in universe, it is good for me. If it is just exploiting for maximal group power, less so.

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Old 07-22-2010, 12:49 AM   #24
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

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Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
Keeping the analogy, that's like saying building Grunt the Tank is great -- but it's somewhat abusive if the party contains any thieves or mages or faces or sages that sold down their ST for points elsewhere, and that Grunt should only be okay in parties of at least Average ST (10).
No analogy is perfect. I can compare the tank and the weak party members to the rich guy and the poor party members, and it's a good comparison, but it doesn't mean they're literally the same situation.

The tank is using his beefiness so the other PCs don't get hit. But the rich guy is using his money to directly enrich the poor PCs. That's a difference. But read on . . .

Quote:
If Wealth is just another advantage -- which makes sense to me -- then why can't it be used to cover deliberate weaknesses in the rest of the group, just like any other niche advantage?
Actually, it's fair even if the others took disadvantageous Wealth -- as long as the rich guy is paying them commiserate with their Wealth levels. In other words, if Lucky Ducky is Poor, and the value of the equipment and petty cash Mr. Moneybags gives him is on par (each month) with that of a Poor job, then you're fine.

But if Lucky Ducky is Poor, and Mr. Moneybags is giving him value equal to that of (say) an Average or Comfortable job, each month, then it's not fair. Because Lucky Ducky got free points and they're not penalizing him. (And yes, that's an analogous, but different, situation to that of one guy with high ST and a party of weaklings.)
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:43 AM   #25
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

Do remember what Wealth is: a rating of off-screen holdings, credit rating, and business connections. At low Wealth, you lack the social network and assets to be offered good jobs, high-yield investment opportunities, large loans, etc. At high Wealth, you have the connections to get cushy postings, invitations to high-Status events, and so forth. In concrete terms, read p. B517 this way:
  • Poor: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status -2 people and get jobs that pay 1/5 of the norm for your TL.
  • Struggling: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status -1 people and get jobs that pay 1/2 of the norm for your TL.
  • Average: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 0 people and get jobs that pay the norm for your TL.
  • Comfortable: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 1 people and get jobs that pay 2 times the norm for your TL.
  • Wealthy: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 2 people and get jobs that pay 5 times the norm for your TL.
  • Very Wealthy: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 3 people and get jobs that pay 20 times the norm for your TL.
  • Filthy Rich: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 4 people and get jobs that pay 100 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 1: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 5 people and get jobs that pay 1,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 2: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 6 people and get jobs that pay 10,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 3: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 7 people and get jobs that pay 100,000 times the norm for your TL.
  • Multimillionaire 4: You're connected enough to hobnob with Status 8 people and get jobs that pay 1,000,000 times the norm for your TL.
These effects are amplified in a number of places. Notably, even when PCs with high Wealth aren't employed, they net more cash from off-screen investments (Independent Income, p. B26). Sometimes, great Wealth even translates into real Status and not just schmoozing rights (Wealth and Status, p. B26). And it also immunizes you somewhat against temptation, since Greed (p. B137) doesn't affect you as much if the sum is small relative to your own wealth.

Note that I've said a lot so far without mentioning starting money at all. That's because starting money is a small part of what Wealth is about. The GM might even give away equipment to go with skills and background story elements – the thief gets lockpicks, a grapnel, a few daggers, etc. for free; the knight starts with armor and a sword; and so on. I've done this and been in campaigns where it was done. It changes very little. Especially in a game focused on mercenaries or dungeon delvers, the first big score will render differences in starting cash largely irrelevant anyway.

Thus, letting rich PCs bankroll poorer ones has little long-term impact on the campaign. It won't help the poorer PCs score better jobs in their downtime, get them into the right social situations for social engineering, or grant them free Status. It won't insulate poorer PCs with Greed from their demons. And it won't let poorer PCs justify any better return on Independent Income. It just means better gear . . . and gear that doesn't cost points has no plot immunity at all. No points means no obligation on the GM's part not to break, confiscate, or steal the gear – or not to have it prove cursed, faulty, radioactive, stolen, etc.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:00 AM   #26
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

I like what Kromm and P.Kitty said.

I'll also add this:

I always make the PCs cough up their monthly cost of living for their Status. The high wealth PC, if he continuously bankrolls the poorer PCs, will inevitably start running into trouble upkeeping the monthly cost of living for his Status...then he might start losing status. I find players willing to be generous, but not so willing to be so generous as to jeopardize their own status.

I also pay attention to where the PCs get their income from. And if they are wandering adventurers with no steady income...well, I find they don't bank roll all that often. Even if they do have steady income...

They do help each other out some...but it never gets crazy. But I think this has a lot to do with the fact that I use all the elements of GURPS economics: Job rolls (or if no job or independent income, then no income unless you graverob it or steal it...and then you have to deal with fences or who knows what), Cost of Living, people treating people of different status differently, etc.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:32 AM   #27
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

Wealth in actual play breaks down like this in my campaigns:
  • Players whose PCs have Wealth are welcome to buy gear for less-fortunate PCs.

  • Heroes with Wealth below that associated with the minimum Status level for plot-relevant social events don't receive invitations and get turned away at the door if they show up anyway, unless they can make some tough skill rolls. Generally, they have to "be in the van," like Tom Arnold in True Lies, while the party's Bruce Wayne meets the group's potential backers, nemeses, etc. over champagne. I figure that if the party's combat monster gets 100% of the spotlight in battle, the party's finances monster ought to get 100% of it here.

  • Heroes receive rewards and honors commensurate with their Wealth. The wealthy hero gets gifts befitting a millionaire. The poor one gets free lunch.
Players who dislike this can do three things:
  1. Buy enough Status that they can't be ignored. While cheaper than Wealth, level for level, it's a bad investment long-term if you lack the Wealth to go with, as you'll eventually miss cost-of-living payments and lose Status.

  2. Save up money and points, and when they have enough of both, convince me that they've bought their way into the wealthy elite and spend points for Wealth and/or Status.

  3. Take high levels of Acting, Fast-Talk, Savoir-Faire (High Society), etc., and fake it. Always fun . . . but a failed skill roll can render the approach more-or-less a nonstarter thereafter, without a significant change in venue.
It goes without saying, I think, that this assumes the campaign has a significant social element – at least as important as, say, fighting or investigation. If it doesn't, then I'd recommend against using Status and Wealth at all, for any PC. In my previous fantasy campaign, getting near the Emperor and having the credit rating to raise a legion were vital plot elements, and I strictly enforced the Status and Wealth rules. In my current spy campaign, all the PCs are ciphers with no official existence, so nobody has Status or Wealth; gear simply shows up, provided by the party Patron.
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:58 AM   #28
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

I wrote this super simplified overview for my players. It doesn't touch on how a high wealth character can support low wealth characters but it does touch on keeping up you status by paying your cost of living.

If a high wealth/status character funded the group of low wealth/status characters, the wealthy character would be paying out of his spending cash (which he'll have plenty) for stuff that is temporary and/or disposable. If the group is equipped with the top of the line stuff over the course of the adventure and then tragically lose all of it. Now all that stuff is gone.

The wealthy could purchase everything again but without him the individual characters don't have the purchasing power to equip again.

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Money and wealth in GURPS tries to represent personal finances without having to spend the time doing your character's taxes. The system is partitioned into four parts: two leveled advantages (Wealth and Status) and two “rules” (jobs and cost of living).

How well-off or poor your character is is represented with the advantage, Wealth. Every character who does not take higher or lower wealth has average wealth for the campaign TL. At character creation wealth allows a character more starting money but later in the character's career wealth measures income form jobs.

Status is the measure of the where in the pecking order of society the character stands. Every character who does not take higher or lower status has average citizen status. Higher status means the character is important and powerful (kings, queens, movie stars, CEOs). A lower status means the character is socially weak (beggars, serf, homeless).

A job is what a character does to earn their wealth level. As long as a character continues to do their job, they get monthly income appropriate for their TL and wealth level.

The cost of living of a character represents the expenses of a character to live the lifestyle they do. Cost of living is usually based on the character's status. A character can choose to live above or below their status at a penalty. If the character lives lower than their status, they give up the luxury's of their status and can lose the respect among their peers and the awe of those under them in society. But living below your status gives the character more on hand cash. If the character lives above their status they will burn through cash fast but as long as they can pay for it, the character can impress society.

Cost of living covers living expenses including lodgings, food, drink, normal clothing for the character's status, etc. It does not covers extras include bribes, adventuring equipment, personal projects, etc.

To calculate character monthly spending cash: Sample: TL3 Wealthy Status 2

Job level (equal to or less than Wealth level): $3500
minus - Cost of living (default: equal to Status): $3000
equals - Monthly Spending Cash: $500

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Last edited by Crispythemighty; 07-22-2010 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 07-22-2010, 04:39 PM   #29
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

What is the errata that makes Wealth effect job searches directly?

Because there are rules for them (B518), and as written Wealth doesn't have any effect. Burning cash on the search does, and having Status might (as an ability that would impress a potential employer), but Wealth is left out.

The text on the preceding page seems not to be aware of this, either.

So what's missing?
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Old 07-22-2010, 05:33 PM   #30
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Default Re: High wealth bank rolling the whole group.

There's really nothing missing . . .

As Wealth Level (p. B517) notes, jobs have associated Wealth levels, and those who work at them must spend points to reach those levels. If they don't, what happens is up to the GM. The most logical outcome is that the PC is seen as insufficiently respectable or reliable for the job, and the employer finds some pretext to terminate him or demote him to a job commensurate with his Wealth level. It's entirely possible that the Status associated with the Wealth level of a job is a de facto prerequisite for the job, too; you can't get the job "Knight" without Status 2, and living in a Status 2 fashion requires you to be Wealthy.

And as Finding a Job (p. B518) explains, the Wealth levels associated with jobs are canonically linked to Status levels, and search rolls have a penalty equal to twice that Status level. Thus, while it's fine for a Status 2 character to start with a Status 2/Wealthy job, the GM is within his rights to deny that to a PC with Status 1 or less, or who's Comfortable or poorer, and ask to see him make the search roll . . . at -4.

I guess you could read these rules otherwise, but the above is the spirit in which they were written.
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