Modifying Gadgeteer [Basic/RPM]

[AlexanderHowl]

One of the major problems that I have with Gadgeteer is that it allows characters to break the TL curve in most games, so I have decided to change it to a form of technological Ritual Path Magic.

Gadgeteer [5 for level 0 plus 10 for every subsequent level]

1. Gadgeteers are capable of learning Disciplines up to a level equal to (12 plus Weird Science)
i. Gadgeteers must possess Weird Science in order to learn Disciplines, which may not exceed the lower of their Weird Science or the associated Scientific Skill.
ii. Every Scientific Skill possesses its own Discipline (Biology, Geography, Paleontology, and Physics have Disciplines for every specialty).
iii. Disciplines default to Weird Science - 6 (up to a maximum default of '12') or the associated Scientific Skill - 4 (no maximum default).
iv. Non-gadgeteers are capable of developing and using Weird Science and Disciplines, though they suffer a -5 to skill on all associated rolls.

2. Gadgeteers gain an Assembly Pool equal to (Gadgeteer * 3) that they may use to augment their rolls when creating Procedures.

3. Gadgeteers are capable of delaying up to (Gadgeteer plus Weird Science) Procedures at a time.

4. Gadgeteers may learn Procedure Adept [40], which allows them to create Procedures without laboratories or materials and with reduced time.
i. Procedure Adept (Laboratory) [10] allows gadgeteers to ignore the -5 to skill for not having a proper laboratory of their TL.
ii. Procedure Adept (Materials) [10] allows gadgeteers to ignore the -5 to skill for not having the required materials of their TL.
iii. Procedure Adept 1 (Time) [10] allows gadgeteers to tap into assembly sources in just one second without the -5 to skill and reduces the initial assembly roll (only) to just five seconds (each subsequent roll takes five minutes or suffers a -5 to skill)
iv. Procedure Adept 2 (Time) [20] allows gadgeteers to tap into assembly sources in just one second without a roll and reduces the assembly rolls to five seconds each.

5. Gadgeteers may specialize in a specific Procedure through taking Procedure Mastery [1], which grants a +2 to all rolls related to a specific Procedure, and they may only take Procedure Mastery once for every Procedure.

The rules would otherwise be for RPM, though Weird Science replaces Thaumatology, Disciplines replace Paths, and Procedures replace Rituals. Assembly rolls would replace gathering rolls, but would be functionally equivalent. Weird Medicine would replace Alchemy, but it would otherwise be identical. Trappings would be scientific rather than magical, but they would otherwise function similarly. Grimories would be replaced by Manuals, but they would otherwise function identically. Gadgets would replace the Magical modifier with the Superscience modifier, but they would otherwise function identically.

What do you think? Would you use the above version of Gadgeteer to replace the default version of Gadgeteer? If not, what changes would you make?

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

One of the major problems that I have with Gadgeteer is that it allows characters to break the TL curve in most games

I know little of how RPM works, but I do have some things about this;
A) As far as I can tell, that's literally what you're paying 25pts for is to break the TL.
B) If that isn't what you want, then it seems simplest to just not have Gadgeteer. If you want people who do 'gadget stuff' then you'd build that however you want.

As for RPM itself, are spells permanent? If not, would gadgets be? If so, that sounds like a pretty massive change.

[AlexanderHowl]

The rituals are temporary, but the gadgets are permanent because you invest CP in them. As for breaking TL, if that is what gadgeteers actually did, modern day Earth would be TL12^ in both the DC and Marvel Universe. Instead, this represents the Reed Richard type of gadgeteer, where his gadgets are really cool but never really seem to change the world.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The rituals are temporary, but the gadgets are permanent because you invest CP in them. As for breaking TL, if that is what gadgeteers actually did, modern day Earth would be TL12^ in both the DC and Marvel Universe. Instead, this represents the Reed Richard type of gadgeteer, where his gadgets are really cool but never really seem to change the world.

CP makes sense. I thought you had an issue with characters having too high of a TL. I'm not sure how much Gadgeteer alone would actually affect things from time to cost to how hard it is to replicate your things by non-gadgeteers to how commonly gadgeteers refuse to work with groups who are likely to corrupt their products. As for some supers-type gadgeteers, I'm not certain they'd all take the actual Gadgeteer advantage. High IQ (+ talents) with a plethora of skills usually means that New Inventions would likely be enough to simulate them.

There's also the actual point cost of other related advantages that would naturally result in mass affecting the TL; Wealth (and Status), Patron, other skills to actually get things out, etc. If you require points to be spent to have those as a simplistic way to simulate if certain items catch on, then it self-balances. If they already have all that and Gadgeteer, then it makes sense they would be the ones changing the TL. The invention of the computer not only sped up TL but how fast TL changes happen.

Aside from that, just requiring players to buy gadget powers for their gadgets keeps them from getting out of hand (except literally of course), but the idea of 'use a magic system and require CP to make things permanent' seems like it would work without anymore issue than the given magic system would. And a quick glance over enchanted items in RPM seems to be both.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The rituals are temporary, but the gadgets are permanent because you invest CP in them. As for breaking TL, if that is what gadgeteers actually did, modern day Earth would be TL12^ in both the DC and Marvel Universe. Instead, this represents the Reed Richard type of gadgeteer, where his gadgets are really cool but never really seem to change the world.

Isn't it simpler to just say "Gadgeteer can't do that"? Gadgeteer can't change the tech level of the society. No need for fancy substitute mechanics.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Isn't it simpler to just say "Gadgeteer can't do that"? Gadgeteer can't change the tech level of the society. No need for fancy substitute mechanics.

You might not even have to go that far. The campaign the GM is running can easily get in the way of a gadgeteer having time to modify the setting or might not always be able to get home to a good set up to do so.

[Refplace]

I'd just go with the Wierd Science rules for Realm Magic, I think by Kromm.

[AlexanderHowl]

The point is to have gadgeteers without changing the status quo, just like in the comic books (the old 'Reed Richards is Useless' trope). It is complete nonsense for such a thing to exist with the default gadgeteer rules, as mass producing even a single TL9 devices should cause massive changes to society. At the very least, it will cause the unemployment of thousands and the implosion of small industries.

For example, imagine the economic impact of mass producing a TL9 Small Computer in a TL8 society, as you have a computer that is 100x as powerful (+2 Complexity) for the same size yet only costs 3× as much. Since the base cost is $50, it is only a Simple Complexity device, so it is quite easy for a gadgeteer to make. Within a year after the start of mass production, everyone is using the TL9 Tiny computer as a replacement for TL8 smartphones, tablets, and laptops, and the entire computer industry is breaking down in response.

As for Realm Magic, the default system is far too expensive (in CP and energy), too complex, and too limited for what it does. While you can waive the energy cost as a GM, it is still an overall inferior system to RPM, especially since you do not have conditional rituals (delayed procedures with the above Gadgeteer). I would argue that Realm Magic is inferior to most of the magical systems to GURPS, especially the ritual magic systems and Verb/Noun syntactic systems (both of which give you the flexibility of Realm Magic without the massive CP cost).

[Phil Masters]

Originally Posted by Refplace

I'd just go with the Wierd Science rules for Realm Magic, I think by Kromm.

I assume that you mean "Sufficiently Deranged", in Pyramid 3/122, by, uh, me.

[awesomenessofme1]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

The point is to have gadgeteers without changing the status quo, just like in the comic books (the old 'Reed Richards is Useless' trope). It is complete nonsense for such a thing to exist with the default gadgeteer rules, as mass producing even a single TL9 devices should cause massive changes to society. At the very least, it will cause the unemployment of thousands and the implosion of small industries.

For example, imagine the economic impact of mass producing a TL9 Small Computer in a TL8 society, as you have a computer that is 100x as powerful (+2 Complexity) for the same size yet only costs 3× as much. Since the base cost is $50, it is only a Simple Complexity device, so it is quite easy for a gadgeteer to make. Within a year after the start of mass production, everyone is using the TL9 Tiny computer as a replacement for TL8 smartphones, tablets, and laptops, and the entire computer industry is breaking down in response.

So... don't allow items with TLs in excess of the campaign TL to be mass-produced? Or just say to your players "Hey, don't do that."? That seems like a far simpler and more convenient way of dealing with this problem, if you even consider it a problem.