Stick it to 'em!

[Shostak]

I’d argue that the difference between a pike axe (pole axe, if you prefer) and a halberd is at least as negligible as that between a naginata and a spear.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

So long as we are talking about polearms, can I ask just what the heck a pike axe is?

A Pike Axe (2D+2 / 3D+2) was a more substantial Halberd (2D / 3D). It was my understanding that the axe blade and spike protruding from the end were somewhat bigger as well as being ~0.5 yards longer to account for the extra damage over the halberd.

I haven't figured out how to post photos here but I did search and find a photo of a variety of polearms all next to each other. In that photo, it was labeled as a Pole Axe per Jeff Lord's mention in another post. The pike reference in calling it a Pike Axe, I suspect, came from it being a little longer than other polearms. However, it's length is no where near that of a pike which is 5 yards per RAW. So, I think that Pole Axe may be a better label.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Lets talk polearms!

What are some ideas for new weapons or rules for pointy-sticks in your game?

The increasing charge attack damage above that of spear offered by halberd and pickaxe never made sense to me, since, in this situation, the pointy bit is the nearly identical functional part and is used in the same way; the choppy bit, which presumably gives them greater damage than a spear, should enjoy no advantage in a charge situation.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

I’d argue that the difference between a pike axe (pole axe, if you prefer) and a halberd is at least as negligible as that between a naginata and a spear.

The difference is similar. Naginata does 1D+2 damage and a Spear does 1D+1 (two handed). I described the damage differences between Pike Axe and Halberd in my last post. So, scaling for size, I'd say that your assertions of correct.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The increasing charge attack damage above that of spear offered by halberd and pickaxe never made sense to me, since, in this situation, the pointy bit is the nearly identical functional part and is used in the same way; the choppy bit, which presumably gives them greater damage than a spear, should enjoy no advantage in a charge situation.

During a charge attack, which I believe is described as a minimum of three hexes, the attacker is building the physical advantage of momentum which increases striking force. This increase would be spread to all aspects of the weapon which includes the end spike. This spike on the end of the Pike Axe can also be a little more substantial as well as the axe portion. The overall weight of the Pike Axe is 22 lbs as compared to 16 lbs for a Halberd. Being struck with 6 extra lbs is worthy of a couple of extra points of damage whether it be in an engaged strike or a charge attack. A spear only weighs 6 lbs per RAW. Those darned laws of physics seem to make heavier weapons inflict more damage especially when it comes to a charge attack where you can be adding ~200 lbs for the wielder of the weapon or even 300 lbs for a Reptile Man.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

The difference is similar. Naginata does 1D+2 damage and a Spear does 1D+1 (two handed).

That's using Classic rules. In the LE, a naginata is a spear. Of course, with house rules, you can do anything you want.

I described the damage differences between Pike Axe and Halberd in my last post. So, scaling for size, I'd say that your assertions of correct.

The photos and museum specimens I've seen suggest no difference between a halberd and a pike axe that would be relevant within the abstraction offered by TFT.

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

During a charge attack, which I believe is described as a minimum of three hexes, the attacker is building the physical advantage of momentum which increases striking force.

Polearms get the bonus in a charge because of their ability to impale on the same axis of movement as the target, which lets the energy of the thrust add to the energy of the target's motion. A halberd's impaling structure is not substantively different than that of a spear, so it makes sense that their damage should be equivalent when used this way. As for the striking force you mention, the chopping motion of a halberd is not along the axis of charge (probably close to 90 degrees from it), so any momentum along the axis of charge would not contribute to the energy of the chop. If a halberd chops (strikes) with greater force in a charge attack, so would a swung sword or battleaxe.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

That's using Classic rules. In the LE, a naginata is a spear. Of course, with house rules, you can do anything you want.

The equating of the naginata to a spear in the new TFT makes absolutely no sense to me. As a GM, my house rule would be to stick with the original TFT damage for the naginata. I do not blindly accept the massive amount of NERFing that occurred in the new TFT. It's like they just couldn't help themselves when they re-wrote the rules and did it whenever and wherever they thought it could be done just because they liked it. Things like this will require more convincing for me. Original TFT doesn't always equal wrong or bad and I will rely upon it when the new rules make no sense to me. I will say that ss I learn the new TFT, I'm learning to live with some of it based upon how some of the extremes have been scaled down. I also have no problem digging my old school heels into the ground when I believe it is warranted. I freely admit to being a Grump Old Engineer. LOL!


The photos and museum specimens I've seen suggest no difference between a halberd and a pike axe that would be relevant within the abstraction offered by TFT.

That may be true with respect to the museum photos that you have seen and I won't dispute that. I saw a photo that suggest the Pole Axe was more substantial.

Regardless of the photos, the actual weights posted in the Weapons Table, to me, is the key. These weights stayed effectively the same from the original TFT (kg) to the new TFT (lbs). The Pike Axe is heavier and longer. The laws of physics warrant more damage as a practical application. In this case, RAW makes sense but I'm biased--especially if it survived the NERFing experienced across TFT.

I concur that length shouldn't really affect damage all that much, if any at all. A perfect example of that is the 5 yard long Pike. It does 2D+1. In a defense against a charge attack would be 3D+1. However, as an awkwardly wielded weapon, it does the same damage as a spear except it has more reach. It's length doesn't even give it the same base damage as applied to its intended use. This aspect was also the same on the original TFT.

By the way, my friend that was into Centaurs hated Pikes for obvious reasons.

[Bill_in_IN]

Originally Posted by Shostak

Polearms get the bonus in a charge because of their ability to impale on the same axis of movement as the target, which lets the energy of the thrust add to the energy of the target's motion. A halberd's impaling structure is not substantively different than that of a spear, so it makes sense that their damage should be equivalent when used this way. As for the striking force you mention, the chopping motion of a halberd is not along the axis of charge (probably close to 90 degrees from it), so any momentum along the axis of charge would not contribute to the energy of the chop. If a halberd chops (strikes) with greater force in a charge attack, so would a swung sword or battleaxe.

I think that we are talking past each other here. We also appear to be on the same page with respect to slash/hack damage.

The impaling spike also has more weight/size behind it. When adding the slightly increased size to account for the weight increase (assuming that the same material is used), more damage would be associated with that. If you want to exclude Pike Axes from your games or make them equal to the Halberd in a charge attack, that's you call. It is a heavier weapon and physics dictates that it has more force associated with its hit of any kind. I believe that you can impose such granularity in TFT if you wish. But, someone in another thread about the staffblade told me that RAW doesn't allow for such granularity. Of course, I don't agree and you can add all of the granularity that you want provided that you can be consistent with it in its application to the game.

[Shostak]

I'm not disputing that the weights are different. However, the weight should be largely irrelevant in a charge. The weight of a halberd or pikeaxe is concentrated at the end of a long lever, and the combination of lever and weight is what gives them greater damage than a spear in general melee. I'm just pointing out that this lever is only useful when the weight is swung, which is exactly the wrong motion necessary to take advantage of a charge attack's momentum. A lever grants no mechanical advantage when used to poke. And so, if we want more realism, a halberd or pickaxe should do the same damage as a spear in charge situations.

That said, I think there is room for greater ST than the minimum required to wield a weapon to contribute extra damage, as I discuss here.