Maces and axes

[JimmyPlenty]

I seem to have an issue with the choice between Mace/Small Ax.

Both are ST 11.

Both can be thrown.

Both of them do 6-ish damage on average.

Small Ax does have the benefit of having a minimum of 3, where the min. of the mace is 1. However, that happens rarely. The mace also has a max of 11 to the ax's 8, which also happens rarely. Are the maces still superior here?

So I guess the choice between one or the other has to do with caring more about the minimum or the maximum.

Now, I know Steve is big into SCA, so it's probably valid, but I am wondering about maces being thrown. Of course, I've never encountered that before in any RPG.

The reason I want to look more into it is because I feel more distance is needed between the two. Not being able to throw a mace would do that trick. But it depends how far off I am about the min/max differences in damage.

[hcobb]

You can get a fine axe, but not a fine mace.

[larsdangly]

One of the disadvantages of a system with excellent balance is that you lose some functional diversity (i.e., you will notice some things are effectively equivalent, even when they seem different to you). There are several examples like this in TFT. I think the obvious 'fix' would be to have a system for damage, armor and injury from GURPS, where crushing and cutting weapons work differently. A more brazen revision of Legacy Edition TFT would have ported over the GURPS treatment of a few select issues like this, and I believe it would have resulted in a better and only slightly crunchier version of Melee (i.e., you could have accomplished a lot without going 'full GURPS'). But that isn't what we did, so short swords, maces and hand axes are all pretty close to the same thing. Unless you want to do something radical in the way of house rules, I think you just have to accept it as part of the game's simplifying abstractions and move on.

[TippetsTX]

I don't allow maces to be thrown, at least not effectively. Anything can be thrown awkwardly.

[hcobb]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I don't allow maces to be thrown, at least not effectively. Anything can be thrown awkwardly.

So if you want a weapon that can be wielded or thrown just take a club. (I.e. a wizard.)

[larsdangly]

It is true that you can throw a wizard like a club, but they don't like it to be talked about openly, so please provide a trigger warning before the next time it is mentioned.

[Shostak]

Some GURPS-style knockback for crushing weapons could be cool to incorporate into TFT. It could be as simple as reducing the knock-down damage from 8 to 7 if an axe/mace weapon is used.

Personally, I think the axe v mace damage should be reversed, giving the edged weapon higher maximum damage due to its ability to actually cut, but the blunt weapon higher minimum.

I allow all axe/mace weapons to be thrown, even two-handed ones.

[larsdangly]

Since we are in the 'house rule' sub forum, I'll suggest a house rule that is borrowed from original Runenquest but would work reasonably well in TFT: Any attack that rolls low enough to qualify for a hit-location specific wound (so, normally 6 or below) and that successfully hits earns a weapon-type specific effect:

Crushing: halve the value of armor protection
Cutting: 1pt of damage per turn from bleeding until the wound is bound
Impaling: +1die damage

Or something like that...

[Axly Suregrip]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

I don't allow maces to be thrown, at least not effectively. Anything can be thrown awkwardly.

Why not? A weapon with mass on the end makes a dandy throwing weapon. And it has no edge to have to line up.

Saxons in the battle of Hastings threw crude mauls and maces.

Search for "mace" on this web page:
https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/...ponry-of-1066/
"Maces were used for hitting enemies over the head, and could also be thrown."

And here is a historical reference from the battle of hastings:
From: https://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout.../hastings.html
In particular the "stones tied to sticks."

It was there on the morning of October 14, that William "came upon him by surprise before his people were marshalled." The battle began with the blare of trumpets, the Normans initiating the attack with a volley of arrows. As the archers fell back, the foot-soldiers advanced, but they were repulsed, says William of Poitiers, by a fusillade of "javelins and missiles of various kinds, murderous axes and stones tied to sticks." As the battle continued, mounted knights moved forward, but they too were driven back.


If you have any doubt, throw a mallet yourself. Just make sure there is nothing you care about in its path. A good steel mallet is hard to find now (seems they are all rubber mallets). Throw one and you will be surprised how much it travels through. A lot easier than throwing a knife.

[TippetsTX]

I'm not saying they can't be thrown, but that's not what they were designed for. The most effective throwing weapons tend to be balanced on both ends (not equally, of course, but enough to facilitate rotation).