A different take on priests

[zot]

[PLEASE NOTE, THE NEW THEURGY TOOLKIT DOCUMENT IS HERE]

I posted about this in the Priest and Theologian thread but I think that thread's pretty old, so I thought I'd move it to another thread.

My document is here. There's plenty to read in the document but here is some summary text from it so you have an idea of what's in there:

The Priest and Theologian talents allow a character to perform time consuming ceremonies (around 15 minutes) that can only be done "when the time is right". A group must wait for an "appointed time" before a priest can perform a ceremony (there are 5 appointed times each day) and even then the priest can perform only one ceremony. Despite these limitations, I feel that priests will be fun to play and, power-wise, fall somewhere between wizards and non-wizards, offering both support and utility.

I think allowing ceremonies to be performed only at certain times has quite a different feel from giving the character "spell slots" they can use whenever they want. Also, I think this system has a more "religious feel" because the character is dependent on something outside himself (appointed times). Note that "before a meal" times are important so the priest can purify food before a party eats and also provide some time-wise flexibility.

Some observations about ceremonies:

1. Priestly effects don't require a new attribute, use points like magic, or use Vancian “spell slots”
2. A priest cannot perform ceremonies during combat
3. Ceremonies take a comparatively long time (15 minutes)
4. Meal times provide some flexibility with appointed times
5. Priests are limited to only one ceremony per appointed time, period (around 5 per day and this doesn't increase with experience)
6. Priests can normally only choose one effect per chunk of game time
7. Ceremonies require a priest player to make potentially difficult decisions
8. Combat effects must be prepared in advance
9. Some ceremonies are "mass-effect" because, for instance, a physicker can attend each person in the party but a priest can only perform one ceremony per "appointed time"
10. Priests aren't WoW-style battle-healers, but they can seriously patch up a group AFTER a combat, which helps general survivability without defaulting to a D&D-style cleric
11. During combat, priests can use normal weapons and fighting talents

[JLV]

Personally, I really like the "ceremonial" approach to this topic. I think that it is a very valid approach.

I note in passing that a LOT of the magic in the existing spell lists would actually be more "ceremonial" magic, done over a period of time measured from minutes to hours as well, but for the purposes of AW it was all compressed into a few seconds. (Can anyone really draw a Pentagram correctly in X number of five-second game turns as opposed to X number of minutes or hours? Much less summon a Demon?)

[Jim Kane]

As do I JLV. The wonderful work which ZOT is expressing is exactly what graduates the whole concept of Priests and their strange religious rituals and magics, to that of a character-type functioning as a bona fide literary device which aids the GM in setting scene and story; and up from that of a *cardboard cleric* - being the low-combat-value party-healer and the guy who's other specialty is to scare away the undead.

JK

[zot]

Thanks guys,

I put in some fertility ceremonies and curses for more folk-religion appeal -- trying to imagine what villagers would want from their priest, especially when they can't afford the steep prices of the Wizard's Guild. Several of the new ceremonies are just notes at this point.

I really don't have much in the way of religions or ceremony lists for them but I'm slowly working on it.

Suggestions here are, of course, more than welcome!

[Jim Kane]

Welcome to the fold ZOT.

For additional ceremonial reference material, you may wish to check out the long out-of-print, Temple Book, by the old Judges Guild; therein you may find some *very* interesting random tables on ceremonies, sacrifices, curses, etc; which may be of helpful interest to you. I will be very interested to see how you continue to develop your work on this subject for TFT. Keep up the good work.

JK

[JLV]

Originally Posted by zot

Thanks guys,

I put in some fertility ceremonies and curses for more folk-religion appeal -- trying to imagine what villagers would want from their priest, especially when they can't afford the steep prices of the Wizard's Guild. Several of the new ceremonies are just notes at this point.

I really don't have much in the way of religions or ceremony lists for them but I'm slowly working on it.

Suggestions here are, of course, more than welcome!

Well, I for one, will be VERY interested to see where you take this. I think you are really on the right track here. Much more so than anything my somewhat random thoughts had come up with thus far.

One question I would like to ask;

Have you ever considered making "True Names" a "thing" in any of your games? And if so, have you considered a "Naming Ceremony" as one of your religious rites?

I'm thinking of Beyond the Wall and some of the clever stuff they did with true names there, but I'm not sure if it would be even slightly desirable to add something like that to TFT, or if it would merely screw things up.

[zot]

Originally Posted by JLV

One question I would like to ask;

Have you ever considered making "True Names" a "thing" in any of your games? And if so, have you considered a "Naming Ceremony" as one of your religious rites?

I'm thinking of Beyond the Wall and some of the clever stuff they did with true names there, but I'm not sure if it would be even slightly desirable to add something like that to TFT, or if it would merely screw things up.

In the priest system, it seems like at a minimum you could use a true name in a curse instead of hair or nail clippings (adding a note to the doc on that). Maybe there are other possibilities.

There were two instances of true names I'm ever used, 1) a sorcery system where true names of demons allowed you to summon them but not control them and 2) a very narrative magic system based on true names, where a wizard who "understood something" could make it operate by itself (like in Name of the Wind). I didn't run either of these systems much, though :(.

I haven't heard of Beyond the Wall but I'll take a look.

[zot]

Starting on the first religion.

Village Wise One

You are a wise woman or man of your village, one of many found in villages all over Cidri. Your calling is an ancient one and you are not like the others of your village, most of whom have forsaken the old ways and do not honor the ancestors and the spirits of nature as they should. Nevertheless, you assist the villagers in their daily lives and call upon the ancestors and the spirits of nature to help your people with their troubles, and also to cause trouble for their enemies. You may have several acolytes, young people from the village who you train so that they can assist you with ceremonies, help the villagers, and answer their questions about the ancestors and the spirits of nature. Perhaps your village’s wise one has trained you and sent you out on a quest or perhaps your village was destroyed and you are seeking the means to wreak vengeance on your enemies.

Talisman: your talisman is the bone of a beast. Most wise ones have a talisman that carries some meaning, like the bone of a beast that attacked their village or one they inherited from their mentor.

-- Two of the Ceremonies --

Consecrate Talisman (Priest): permanently consecrates your talisman, if you already have a talisman, that talisman is no longer consecrated.

Sit cross-legged in front of a fire (the preferred setting is a campfire in a cave but any fire will do), with a bowl of water and the bone for the talisman. Meditates on the fire, your village (or their chosen group), and the water, chanting a litany of their responsibilities, the names of your ancestors, and your village’s (or group’s) adversaries. Dip the bone in the water and shake the water into the fire three times, once at the start of the ceremony, once in the middle, and once at the conclusion.

Form of the Beast (Priest): you assume the form of a beast until the next appointed time (making dusk-to-dawn the longest period of transformation). The attributes of the beast must total the same as or lower than yours and must be appropriate to the beast. Damage is preserved across transformations (better be careful).

Crouch in front of a fire with a part of your chosen beast and your bone in one hand, a drum in the other, calling the beast’s spirit to participate along with you. Perform a dance, acting out the beast into which you will transform. As you dance, appeal to the beast’s spirit, strike the drum with the part of the beast and your bone and then strike them on the parts of your body. As the ceremony approaches its end, noises of the beast will become louder and more clear until it finally cries out and you transform.

[Chris Rice]

I really like this approach. I introduced Religious Magic into my TFT quite early on, although some of it I allowed to work more instantly like turn Undead or Protection spells. I do remember that Consecrate/Desecrate rituals were an important part of one campaign; giving a rationale for penetrating underground complexes to destroy enemy temples.

I'd really like to see this adopted into TFT as I definitely felt the lack of Priestly powers in the rules as written.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Chris Rice

I really like this approach. I introduced Religious Magic into my TFT quite early on, although some of it I allowed to work more instantly like turn Undead or Protection spells. I do remember that Consecrate/Desecrate rituals were an important part of one campaign; giving a rationale for penetrating underground complexes to destroy enemy temples.

I'd really like to see this adopted into TFT as I definitely felt the lack of Priestly powers in the rules as written.

Thanks,

Priests can use their talismans in combat, the Village Wise One (the religion I'm fleshing out) has avert, protection, smite, and heal. Protection had been against curses but I'm changing it to Divine Radiance (edit: not Stone / Iron Flesh) because I like your idea. Also, "smite" isn't a good name for a village wise one power, I need a better one.

The wise one's avert, by the way, doesn't affect undead, it affects nonsentient beasts and monsters (the more common threats to villages).