Survivable Guns Realism

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

...And swap it out for a semi auto rifle or shotgun loaded with 00 buck and you tend to rapidly get to "get hit more than once (unarmored) and the fight is over."....

Good example of what I was talking about 00 buck is (1d6+1)/2 Pi using this system so what 2pts a hit?

Going at 3x9 Rof is what +4 to hit and at Rcl1 you'll get more hits but you'll need a lot or a lucky hit to a vital.

Sorry to pick out one thing, but I have a bad habit of writing long posts ;-)

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

1). Not sure getting crippled by a shot to the arm is wrong

The problem is that it's currently pretty much automatic, while in reality (and particularly in fiction) people can and have continued functioning. Some of the issue may well be the fact that GURPS uses automatic crippling thresholds. I've said it before, but crippling should typically allow an HT roll to avoid (success by 5+ avoids crippling, success is temporary, failure is lasting, critical failure is permanent, and really bad wounds impose a penalty to the check).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

2). Not sure getting shot three times in the torso isn't a reasonable risk of death, but it's still not the 'lots of lucky rolls' you cite (there are as ever lots of variables)

Getting shot three times in the Torso without hitting the Vitals should a) risk knocking you down/out by shock and pain (pretty much an instant effect), and b) risk bleeding to death. As it stands, getting shot three times in the Torso without hitting the Vitals is going to slow you down markedly, almost certainly render you unconscious within a few seconds, and possibly kill you outright.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

3). Things like random hit locations will make a big difference to what your citing.

If talking about three shots to the Torso that don't hit the Vitals, random hit locations don't matter, because we've already established where the bullets are hitting.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

4). Halving the basic damage gets you weird results in many cases.

Tiny bullets are nearly useless in the short term unless they hit something rather important, or incapacitate the target solely through psychological effects (ohcrapIjustgotshot!).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

5). The penetration cap give the same results as halving damage in many cases without the weird results.

Depends on how you're implementing it, and it still probably causes an excessive amount of bleeding. Also, a bullet that goes all the way through the torso without hitting anything important isn't going to impede a combatant (outside of bleeding) beyond the initial shock, while in GURPS it will render them incapable of action within seconds.
Of course, halving damage doesn't really address this problem (I assume the blowthrough caps are still the same).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

6). If you really don't like crippled limbs from Pi wounds, change how Pi wounds cripple limbs.

Now here's a good idea. Pi+, Pi++, and Imp already don't get their increased wounding against limbs. The concept of, say, halving the wounding modifier of any Pi attack (so pi- is 1/4, pi is 1/2, etc) against limbs makes some deal of sense.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Good example of what I was talking about 00 buck is (1d6+1)/2 Pi using this system so what 2pts a hit?

Going at 3x9 Rof is what +4 to hit and at Rcl1 you'll get more hits but you'll need a lot or a lucky hit to a vital.

+5, actually. A shot that would have just-hit with a slug (MoS 0) will instead hit with 6 pellets (MoS 5), which even with damaged halved is going to incapacitate an HP 12 person. Without damage halved, those 6 pellets - none of which have hit a vital location, mind you - have a decent chance of killing the target outright.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

OK, but there's more than one (there normally is).

But to summerise:


1). Not sure getting crippled by a shot to the arm is wrong

2). Not sure getting shot three times in the torso isn't a reasonable risk of death, but it's still not the 'lots of lucky rolls' you cite (there are as ever lots of variables)

3). Things like random hit locations will make a big difference to what your citing.

4). Halving the basic damage gets you weird results in many cases.

5). The penetration cap give the same results as halving damage in many cases without the weird results.

6). If you really don't like crippled limbs from Pi wounds, change how Pi wounds cripple limbs.

Simple's

Thank you, I do appreciate it. Getting crippled by a shot to the arm isn't wrong, but the frequency with even lower power firearms doesn't seem right to me. If you get shot three times in the torso, unless they hit the vitals, you should be in danger of bleeding to death but not incapacitated, generally. Handguns are just not that effective. Random hit locations do make a big difference, but the most common hit locations are still torso and limbs. As for the weird results, I agree that you need to get shot a LOT in nonvital areas with a pi- hangun round to be in danger of immediate incapacitation as opposed to bleeding to death later. James Bond uses a PPK because he's an excellent shot and it's super concealable, not because it's so effective a man stopper (though he'd probably be carrying JHP, not ball ammo like most people who know what they're doing).

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Good example of what I was talking about 00 buck is (1d6+1)/2 Pi using this system so what 2pts a hit?

Going at 3x9 Rof is what +4 to hit and at Rcl1 you'll get more hits but you'll need a lot or a lucky hit to a vital.

Sorry to pick out one thing, but I have a bad habit of writing long posts ;-)

Well, I'd just call that 1d-1 per pellet (4.5 avg dam halved, roughly equivalent). And as you note, rcl 1, plus it's a long arm so if you aim.... One shell would severely ruin your day. Three from a semiauto would really really ruin your day, most likely. And if you're hitting the torso and rolling 1d6 to see if you hit the vitals on a bunch of those....

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The problem is that it's currently pretty much automatic, while in reality (and particularly in fiction) people can and have continued functioning. Some of the issue may well be the fact that GURPS uses automatic crippling thresholds. I've said it before, but crippling should typically allow an HT roll to avoid (success by 5+ avoids crippling, success is temporary, failure is lasting, critical failure is permanent, and really bad wounds impose a penalty to the check)..

I agree automatic effects are seldom good (or even realistic) but I think "and particularly in fiction" is rather telling.

Also it's not actually all that automatic

Take the .45 against a ST10 Arm it need to roll a 6+ now that less than an average roll but its not an automatic roll (28% of it not happening)

the 9mm is more a certainty though.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Getting shot three times in the Torso without hitting the Vitals should a) risk knocking you down/out by shock and pain (pretty much an instant effect), and b) risk bleeding to death. As it stands, getting shot three times in the Torso without hitting the Vitals is going to slow you down markedly, almost certainly render you unconscious within a few seconds, and possibly kill you outright.

No sure those are all that different. Shock can kill after all. To be honest I'm going to see the survival rates of being shot three times in the torso without hitting a vitals organ before I start believing its just a matter of bleeding to death.

Originally Posted by Varyon

If talking about three shots to the Torso that don't hit the Vitals, random hit locations don't matter, because we've already established where the bullets are hitting.

No I'm talking about just getting shot three times, then it makes difference. Each limb wound will be capped at 6 pts, if they are low rolls and your already at heavily wounded and your using last wounds then they won't count etc. etc.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Tiny bullets are nearly useless in the short term unless they hit something rather important, or incapacitate the target solely through psychological effects (ohcrapIjustgotshot!).

That's fine but Pi- already does this, I think James Bond having to empty his clip into his target to get him to less than 1/3HP is over stating it.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Depends on how you're implementing it, and it still probably causes an excessive amount of bleeding. Also, a bullet that goes all the way through the torso without hitting anything important isn't going to impede a combatant (outside of bleeding) beyond the initial shock,

I think you'll need to back that up especially as beyond the initial shock can mean a lot of different things in RL (i.e it coudl be just a shock penalty in GURPS terms, but it could also mean failing that HT check to stay upright)

Originally Posted by Varyon

while in GURPS it will render them incapable of action within seconds.
Of course, halving damage doesn't really address this problem (I assume the blowthrough caps are still the same).

Well it would in the case of pistol rounds, but won't for rifle rounds

Originally Posted by Varyon

Now here's a good idea. Pi+, Pi++, and Imp already don't get their increased wounding against limbs. The concept of, say, halving the wounding modifier of any Pi attack (so pi- is 1/4, pi is 1/2, etc) against limbs makes some deal of sense.

I was using the already RAW adjustment to damage types to justify it in my head I admit.

If nothing else it will restrict auto crippling, but I like your HT roll idea as well

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Crakkerjakk

, I agree that you need to get shot a LOT in nonvital areas with a pi- hangun round to be in danger of immediate incapacitation as opposed to bleeding to death later. .

It might go back to Anthony's increased variability of wounding but even with RAW it requires a good damage roll on Critical Hit to the Vitals with a damage multiplier on the table (very rare) to kill an average man with a .22/.25.

I know of a case where a SWAT guy died from a single hit from a .25 ACP. It went through the arm hole in his tac vest and dropped him in no more than a second. You need the Vitals hit and a decent damage roll just to get the possibility of a failed Consciousness Roll.

Skull hits can be even worse for P- guns because of the Skull's DR2 (which probably shouldn't apply to anything but Cr damage type). I know P- hits to the brain are sometimes survivable but there are a lot of people who have been killed by them too.

So no halving for small caliber guns. It really looks like it's only full power 7D rifles and maybe 5D carbines that see really excessive wounding and we have a modified blowthrough rule in HT to cover them.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

I agree automatic effects are seldom good (or even realistic) but I think "and particularly in fiction" is rather telling.

Also it's not actually all that automatic

It is for rifle-class weapons. To cripple someone's arm with a bullet you basically need to either hit and break the bone, or you need to sever a nerve or tendon; most hits to muscle will only impair function. With a rifle that's should be around 1 in 3, since most rifles will shatter bone if they hit it, with a pistol it's less, since pistol rounds have a pretty fair chance to deflect off of bone.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

It might go back to Anthony's increased variability of wounding but even with RAW it requires a good damage roll on Critical Hit to the Vitals with a damage multiplier on the table (very rare) to kill an average man with a .22/.25.

I know of a case where a SWAT guy died from a single hit from a .25 ACP. It went through the arm hole in his tac vest and dropped him in no more than a second. You need the Vitals hit and a decent damage roll just to get the possibility of a failed Consciousness Roll.

Skull hits can be even worse for P- guns because of the Skull's DR2 (which probably shouldn't apply to anything but Cr damage type). I know P- hits to the brain are sometimes survivable but there are a lot of people who have been killed by them too.

So no halving for small caliber guns. It really looks like it's only full power 7D rifles and maybe 5D carbines that see really excessive wounding and we have a modified blowthrough rule in HT to cover them.

A single shot to the vitals with a crit that increases damage will accomplish that. And no, .22 LR have a history of bouncing off (well, ricocheting off of and then messily blowing out the back of the scalp) people's skulls. Though do remember all bullets are getting AD (2) in this proposal.

[Fred Brackin]

[QUOTE=Crakkerjakk;1764437, .22 LR have a history of bouncing off (well, ricocheting off of and then messily blowing out the back of the scalp) people's skulls.[/QUOTE]

_Sometimes_. They also have a history of killing people stone cold dead with a bullet to the brain sometimes.

[Crakkerjakk]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

_Sometimes_. They also have a history of killing people stone cold dead with a bullet to the brain sometimes.

Close in, or through the eye. At range they do tend to deflect a lot. And a max damage roll to the skull or eye will pretty effectively drop someone and make them rapidly bleed to death, with very little chance of surgical intervention due to it being a wound to the brain.

Anyway, I'll admit that you start to lose some edge cases with this system with very small rounds with not much powder, but it's pretty rare that I see these used in my games. It fixes actual problems I've seen in my games for the vast majority of weapon types actually used, and it's still pretty close for the smaller weapons, so meh.

[Phoenix_Dragon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

_Sometimes_. They also have a history of killing people stone cold dead with a bullet to the brain sometimes.

In GURPS, .22 and .25 is more likely to penetrate the skull and immediately incapacitate the target than it is to bounce off the skull. While it's unlikely to kill instantly, there's a good chance of inflicting a fatal wound via bleeding.

Though for more realistic results, we should probably have hits that fail to penetrate the skull instead count as face hits, so the person will still take 1-2 points of damage.