They're Coming to Take Me Away, Ha-Haaa! to Hell.

[William]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

On the contrary, it is absolutely worth destroying them before Hell gets 'em, both to mercifully relieve them of their eternal torment, and to deny Hell a talking Reliquary-5.

Though, this more leads to images of Relievers simply holding down and soul-killing the damned rather than bothering to drag them to a Tether.

Mm... doesn't seem very Heavenly, does it?

Look at it this way -- if the damnation of the damned is just, then angels would have no cause to interfere. Their primary responsibility with respect to the damned might be to keep successful "escapees" from interfering with living humans, possibly by imprisonment -- but that in itself would be costly of Essence and resources to Heaven. If both Sides tend to observe a "hands-off" policy with respect to the other's targets, you keep the War from blowing too hot. Demons would break it more often, but angels have to expend fewer resources chasing down the unwilling, so it balances out.

[William]

Ah, Location. Yes, that sounds better. Sorry about the name mix-up.

[ISNorden]

A Reliever would have to be discordantly Merciful to even think of soul-killing the damned; a full-Fledged angel who tried to run a "post-mortem euthanasia" operation is risking his own soul-death in Dominic's Court.

The faithful Soldier of God who dies attacking an Infernal Tether, though? If he gets "soul-napped", Heaven is going to send whatever angelic backup it can spare. (Dominic probably keeps a multi-Triad rescue squad headed by an Angel of Wrongful Imprisonment, in a campaign with William's suggested rules.)

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by William

Mm... doesn't seem very Heavenly, does it?

Look at it this way -- if the damnation of the damned is just, then angels would have no cause to interfere. Their primary responsibility with respect to the damned might be to keep successful "escapees" from interfering with living humans, possibly by imprisonment -- but that in itself would be costly of Essence and resources to Heaven. If both Sides tend to observe a "hands-off" policy with respect to the other's targets, you keep the War from blowing too hot. Demons would break it more often, but angels have to expend fewer resources chasing down the unwilling, so it balances out.

There's nothing "just" about allowing any soul, even the most depraved of the damned, to fall into demonic hands. There is not, nor can ever exist, a finite crime so great that infinite punishment is the proportionate retribution - and you can bet your last celestial force that the demons will not make the "punishment" of their toys proportionate. Every soul that gets into Hell as it currently stands, no matter how wicked, no matter how evil, is an atrocity worth stopping on its own merits, even before you get into the simple fact that Heaven is fighting a war and all considerations of being "heavenly" must come second to winning that war if the two goals should conflict.

Angels could also expend fewer resources by simply allowing damned souls to enter Heaven. If the Light of Heaven burninates them to death, then that is their just punishment and their merciful release - otherwise, Dominic can see to it that they receive an actually fair punishment, instead of the ridiculously disproportionate suffering that awaits them in the Other Side's hands.

Originally Posted by ISNorden

A Reliever would have to be discordantly Merciful to even think of soul-killing the damned; a full-Fledged angel who tried to run a "post-mortem euthanasia" operation is risking his own soul-death in Dominic's Court.

Sorry, by "soul-death" do you mean "commendation for acting above and beyond the call of duty to prevent injustice and disproportionate punishment"? Because as outlined above, Hell is a greater punishment than the damned deserve by Dominic's "punishment must fit crime" dissonance condition, in all cases and all situations, as it is infinite punishment for finite crime.

[William]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

all considerations of being "heavenly" must come second to winning that war if the two goals should conflict.

If Heaven wins that fight that way I'm not sure it's Heaven that won.

infinite punishment for finite crime.

So is every angel of Judgment in your games Dissonant for not demanding to launch rescues of the damned in Hell, suffering disproportionately to their crime?

Assuming Heaven wins the war eventually, they can govern Hell as they like, meting out punishments and rehabilitation with as just a hand as could be wished. So either Hell's going to win Armageddon, the War will last forever, or punishment in Hell is finite.

Ah well. It's just a variant. About the only part that could make it into a canonical game is ethereal psychopomps with the Song of Location, since Ethereal Soldiers might have more chance of getting "lost," maybe ghosts, in the vagaries of the Symphony.

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by William

If Heaven wins that fight that way I'm not sure it's Heaven that won.

If Heaven is willing to avoid an entirely practical tactic even after a full cost-benefit analysis says that it's the cheapest good option, then they may as well give up the fight altogether, because they are ceding an enormous advantage to Hell that way and they specifically do not have a guarantee of victory.

In any case, soul-killing is clearly not inherently un-Heavenly, because Malakim and even Mercurians are allowed to do it to demons. Likewise killing and harming humans is not inherently un-Heavenly because six out of seven major Choirs can do it without a qualm. Ergo, you would need to invoke some other principle to claim that soul-killing humans is inherently un-Heavenly at all, let alone so inherently un-Heavenly that the costs always outweigh the benefits.

Originally Posted by William

So is every angel of Judgment in your games Dissonant for not demanding to launch rescues of the damned in Hell, suffering disproportionately to their crime?

Nope, the condition is that they not personally inflict a punishment disproportionate to the crime. The rest is down to opportunity. Dominic clearly doesn't cause dissonance for merely failing to prevent a disproportionate punishment - otherwise human history would have gone very differently, or Judges would be forbidden from deployment on Earth due to either becoming a miserable pile of Discord within the year or blowing the Masquerade to smithereens.

Under your proposal of having to actually nab souls, Judges would be dissonant if they allowed demons to take damned souls for no good tactical reason - if the deciding factor was that they wanted the damned souls to be punished in Hell, rather than somewhere else.

Originally Posted by William

Assuming Heaven wins the war eventually,

That's not a fair assumption - whether or not Hell has the upper hand now, it's had the upper hand for most of the War, else it could not possibly have grown from an outnumbered and outgunned breakaway sect to a military power that rivals Heaven.

It's also a downright dangerous assumption when deciding to turn down tactical options that make Heaven win faster. Complacency leads to inaction leads to the victory of evil.

[Methariel]

Originally Posted by William

If Heaven wins that fight that way I'm not sure it's Heaven that won.

Well, it seems that this part of the discussion, at least, is getting away from the original topic. But it's interesting enough to warrant ist own thread. Maybe one of the moderators could take care of that?

On that topic, I think I'll have to side with William. One could point out that after Uriel's dismissal, it's been Laurence who was promoted to be General of the Hosts of Heaven, and not Michael again. It might very well be that one of the reasons behind this decision is Laurence's integrity and honour, although Michael and Janus often criticize him for applying it to his strategy. But since the War is not only a question of the higher body count, but a War over hearts and souls, too, you shouldn't just win it by causing more losses, but by doing it "the right way".

I'm at a loss of time, right now, but maybe later I can elaborate further.


M.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

... Likewise killing and harming humans is not inherently un-Heavenly because six out of seven major Choirs can do it without a qualm. ...

Really? Which one isn't a major Choir: Kyriotates or Mercurians?

Originally Posted by Methariel

Well, it seems that this part of the discussion, at least, is getting away from the original topic. ...

We got away from the original topic in the very first reply. (The thread was originally about Kobal granting a Distinction to a damned soul that hasn't been damned yet.)