Rules puzzle: Extra Attack and readying

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by whswhs

I kind of like the perk option, actually. Does it seem to be balanced as far as cost is concerned? If so, I'll talk to my GM about it.

Doesn't seem out of line to me.

I suspect that the official position would require two Ready maneuvers, but I've been wrong before *rolleyes*

[Kromm]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Hmmm. What are the rules for Readying if your style involves a weapon in each hand—say, a rapier and a main-gauche? Can you Ready them both in a single maneuver, or does it take one maneuver for each, and thus two seconds? I can't find this in the Basic Set or Martial Arts.

Pulling out weapons normally takes a second per weapon. You can get this down to a second by taking Fast-Draw for one of the weapons, or make it a free action by taking Fast-Draw for both weapons. This doesn't get an explicit rule per se because the Ready maneuver is insensitive to whether you're using both hands to get your weapon out or just one, hypothetically leaving the other available to do something. However, Martial Arts does explicitly address "How many Fast-Draws?" and "Can I Fast-Draw with each hand?"; see p. 103.

Note that Fast-Draw really is "that fundamental" to the game. Far from being a slightly obscure optional extra for fighters, it's the assumed and preferred mechanism for what it accomplishes for multi-weapon and thrown-weapon fighters, not to mention gunmen. I would say that it's difficult to build armed PCs and use the combat system as written (and as expanded in Martial Arts) without assuming that every serious fighter has Fast-Draw for his or her weapons of choice.

A big issue with historical styles vs. game realism, though, is that many if not most historical styles assumed fighters starting with weapons in hand, either rushing into battle or preparing to duel. Getting to one's weapons quickly was rarely a priority, with some notable exceptions. PCs being rather . . . odd, I'd say that they will often be adding Fast-Draw to styles that don't call for it, even optionally.

[Kromm]

As for perks . . . Sure why not? We already have a perk that lets you swap things as a free action, and another that extends Fast-Draw to sheathing, so I can't see a third perk that extends a Ready to both hands being especially bad. If it's specialized to specific weapons -- Dual Ready (Dagger/Rapier) -- and still takes a second, then the point this costs is arguably balanced against the point it would cost to get Fast-Draw for one weapon and take a second to Ready the other. The need for a die roll in the second case is offset by the fact that it's adaptable, where the perk is a set piece.

[KlausPrinceOfTheUndeads]

Originally Posted by Kromm

Pulling out weapons normally takes a second per weapon. You can get this down to a second by taking Fast-Draw for one of the weapons, or make it a free action by taking Fast-Draw for both weapons. This doesn't get an explicit rule per se because the Ready maneuver is insensitive to whether you're using both hands to get your weapon out or just one, hypothetically leaving the other available to do something. However, Martial Arts does explicitly address "How many Fast-Draws?" and "Can I Fast-Draw with each hand?"; see p. 103.

Note that Fast-Draw really is "that fundamental" to the game. Far from being a slightly obscure optional extra for fighters, it's the assumed and preferred mechanism for what it accomplishes for multi-weapon and thrown-weapon fighters, not to mention gunmen. I would say that it's difficult to build armed PCs and use the combat system as written (and as expanded in Martial Arts) without assuming that every serious fighter has Fast-Draw for his or her weapons of choice.

A big issue with historical styles vs. game realism, though, is that many if not most historical styles assumed fighters starting with weapons in hand, either rushing into battle or preparing to duel. Getting to one's weapons quickly was rarely a priority, with some notable exceptions. PCs being rather . . . odd, I'd say that they will often be adding Fast-Draw to styles that don't call for it, even optionally.

Mmm... that could be added to your list of "recommended adventuring skills", couldn't it?

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Kromm

As for perks . . . Sure why not? We already have a perk that lets you swap things as a free action, and another that extends Fast-Draw to sheathing, so I can't see a third perk that extends a Ready to both hands being especially bad. If it's specialized to specific weapons -- Dual Ready (Dagger/Rapier) -- and still takes a second, then the point this costs is arguably balanced against the point it would cost to get Fast-Draw for one weapon and take a second to Ready the other. The need for a die roll in the second case is offset by the fact that it's adaptable, where the perk is a set piece.

In that case, I will brace my GM about Dual Ready (Rock/Rock).

Fast-Draw (Rock) would have been the way to go, had I built her as a rock thrower in the first place, instead of having it emerge during play. La Gata started out with Thrown Rock-15, the default from her DX, and later invested an earned point in the skill; she's learning Fast-Draw (Rock) as fast as the GM will let her. When she DOES learn it, of course, she'll have Fast-Draw (Rock)-19 with both hands (Ambidexterity) and be able to grab and throw two rocks a second . . . which will substantially improve on what she has now.

[Ciaran]

Rereading this thread, it's clear to me I owe Bill an apology - I managed to conflate his and another poster's comments in my mind, leading to a far more caustic response than his (quite reasonable) posts deserved. So count this as my public mea culpa. And maybe La Gata wasn't designed from the ground up for combat (no sin that), but she still sounds really cool!

[Armorlord]

Originally Posted by Kromm

No, I'm right and the book is imprecise. We clarified this greatly in Martial Arts: "Each level of the Extra Attack advantage gives one additional attack per All-Out Attack, Attack, Committed Attack, Defensive Attack, or Move and Attack maneuver. Extra Attack benefits only those maneuvers." Also: "A fighter . . . can't sacrifice attacks to perform tasks covered by other maneuvers. He cannot make multiple posture changes . . . hastily Ready an unready weapon . . . count his turn as more than one second of Concentrate, or Aim or Evaluate on a turn when he attacks." In short, Extra Attack is one extra attack roll on your turn when you take an offensive maneuver. It isn't an extra Attack maneuver.

What point cost might you assign to an Extra Attack Maneuver advantage?
There is an Ally one-armed swordsman in town that's been known to Evaluate and attack difficult targets on his turn, among other combat options, which it sounds like he cannot do anymore with just Extra Attack.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Armorlord

There is an Ally one-armed swordsman in town that's been known to Evaluate and attack difficult targets on his turn, among other combat options, which it sounds like he cannot do anymore with just Extra Attack.

Why would someone consistently use a 25 CP Advantage just to get a +1 to attack?

A +4 to skill with his primary weapon costs 24 CPs. DX without a bonus to Basic Speed costs 15 CPs.

There are better ways to buy a bonus to your to hit chance.

[Armorlord]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Why would someone consistently use a 25 CP Advantage just to get a +1 to attack?

Not consistently, just the one that came to the top of my mind that I was sure I remembered right. Haven't seen him too often, think we've seen him attack and All-Out Defend as well (not positive about that), Move and attack, Attack and attack.. basically used as a general free single swing in any given turn.

EDIT: Thinking about it, haven't seen it used as a full Extra Attack Maneuver, still just one Extra Attack, just one used regardless of other actions in the turn.
Still curious what a full Extra Attack Maneuver might cost, but I suppose it would be more of a modifier to Extra Attack (+?% Usable on any turn). Mentioned the thread to the GM of that game, currently in a holding pattern of 'house ruled to work as we thought it did until he hears a suggestion he likes'.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

Rereading this thread, it's clear to me I owe Bill an apology - I managed to conflate his and another poster's comments in my mind, leading to a far more caustic response than his (quite reasonable) posts deserved. So count this as my public mea culpa. And maybe La Gata wasn't designed from the ground up for combat (no sin that), but she still sounds really cool!

Actually, she was designed from the ground up for combat—that is, melee combat. But I didn't understand all the nuances of how the combat rules worked. I've been studying them a lot more closely while getting ready for my swashbuckling campaign, and I've spotted things I misunderstood previously. And as for thrown weapon combat, I didn't originally have any intention of having her throw rocks; it's just that eventually I reasoned by analogy that if she could jump four times as far as usual, she could probably throw a rock four times as far too. Which is where the Super Throwing advantage in GURPS Supers ultimately came from.

But in any case, she's been a lot of fun to run. Between Basic Move 12, Enhanced Time Sense, Daredevil, and the option of Acrobatic Dodge, she's nearly impossible to hit, and I regularly have her do things that look suicidally reckless and get away unscathed (though there is still an element of risk—those natural 17s and 18s—and thus she gets the benefit of Daredevil). It's quite fun to hear another player refer to her as "Crazy Cat."

Bill Stoddard