Resolving problem with pentagrams and wish contest of wills

[zot]

If a wizard fails the contest of wills to gain a wish, the demon attacks him. Page 143 says, "Pentagrams will not protect the wizard in this battle of wills – though a good pentagram would prevent the demon from smashing anything else after he finished off the wizard!"

How is it possible for the demon to attack the wizard when it can't cross the pentagram and it has no ranged attacks?

I suggest this clarification:

If there is a pentagram, the wizard must be on the same side as the demon for the contest of wills to take place. So if a wizard summons a demon into a pentagram, the wizard must enter the pentagram with the demon in order to gain a wish.

[hcobb]

I read it as a mental contest. The wizard's body is untouched but burns into ash.

[TippetsTX]

Or perhaps the 'battle of wills' is an abstraction for determining how secure the wizard's pentagram really is. If the demon wins, it means they found a flaw which makes the wizard vulnerable to attack.

[Shostak]

The section on demon summoning does not come across as thoroughly playtested, since there are obvious contradictions. I don't use these rules as written, but as a cursory guide. I also prefer the demon stats from the original ITL.

[zot]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The section on demon summoning does not come across as thoroughly playtested, since there are obvious contradictions. I don't use these rules as written, but as a cursory guide. I also prefer the demon stats from the original ITL.

I think my suggestion might resolve all of the contradictions...

[Shostak]

Originally Posted by zot

I think my suggestion might resolve all of the contradictions...

Except that is not how pentagrams are ever used, at least to my knowledge.

[Skarg]

Originally Posted by Shostak

The section on demon summoning does not come across as thoroughly playtested, since there are obvious contradictions. I don't use these rules as written, but as a cursory guide. I also prefer the demon stats from the original ITL.

Exactly. Steve realized he had reduced the expected IQ of wizards, and also seems to be a bit less severe than he was in the original edition, so he reduced Demon IQ AND softened these contests... but yeah, he didn't playtest them or analyze them enough to realize this allows relatively risk-free Wish generation by people with enough resources and preparations. Or he assumed that wasn't a problem, and/or would be handled by GMs who did think it was a problem.

And a GM who does see it as a problem can of course change whatever they want.

But yes, changes are needed.

The part about the pentagram not protecting in the contest of wills is left over from the original version, where losing the contest means you die, no combat, and get to roll another such contest to see if you can be revived, or if you're a pile of ash.

I would tend to either use the original system, or develop my own invention for how it works and what demons are really like and what their abilities really are. Because I want wishes to be very rare and special things, which don't get industrially produced and mostly don't ever come into actual play, because it risks a very rare and powerful wizard to have even a chance to produce one.

[warhorse11h]

Originally Posted by Skarg

Exactly. Steve realized he had reduced the expected IQ of wizards, and also seems to be a bit less severe than he was in the original edition, so he reduced Demon IQ AND softened these contests... but yeah, he didn't playtest them or analyze them enough to realize this allows relatively risk-free Wish generation by people with enough resources and preparations. Or he assumed that wasn't a problem, and/or would be handled by GMs who did think it was a problem.

And a GM who does see it as a problem can of course change whatever they want.

But yes, changes are needed.

The part about the pentagram not protecting in the contest of wills is left over from the original version, where losing the contest means you die, no combat, and get to roll another such contest to see if you can be revived, or if you're a pile of ash.

I would tend to either use the original system, or develop my own invention for how it works and what demons are really like and what their abilities really are. Because I want wishes to be very rare and special things, which don't get industrially produced and mostly don't ever come into actual play, because it risks a very rare and powerful wizard to have even a chance to produce one.

Could this perhaps salvage the procedure. I offer it only as a possibility.
Allow the contest of wills as written, but allow a +5 bonus to the IQ of the lesser demon or demon and impose a -5 penalty to the IQ of the wizard. It could be claimed these are the result of the hostile and alien mind of the demon and the effects it has on the wizard. It should make it much harder to obtain a wish. Just a thought.

[zot]

Originally Posted by TippetsTX

Or perhaps the 'battle of wills' is an abstraction for determining how secure the wizard's pentagram really is. If the demon wins, it means they found a flaw which makes the wizard vulnerable to attack.

The text indicates that the demon does not find a flaw in the pentagram because if the wizard dies, the pentagram still prevents the demon from smashing anything else: "Pentagrams will not protect the wizard in this battle of wills – though a good pentagram would prevent the demon from smashing anything else after he finished off the wizard!"

[TippetsTX]

Originally Posted by zot

The text indicates that the demon does not find a flaw in the pentagram because if the wizard dies, the pentagram still prevents the demon from smashing anything else: "Pentagrams will not protect the wizard in this battle of wills – though a good pentagram would prevent the demon from smashing anything else after he finished off the wizard!"

I assume that pentagrams in TFT provide two levels of protection... the most obvious one is physical, but the flaw I am referring to would be related to the mental barrier. Losing the 'battle of wills' means the demon fries the wizard from the inside out (picture Scanners).

Getting inside the pentagram would be a very bad idea.