A Bestiary for more than the DFRPG: Nordlond Enemies Book

[maximara]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Hawk
Hawks are predatory birds, with hook-bills, fierce-looking eyes,
and powerful feet with long talons. Species of hawk can be found
in almost any environment, from harriers soaring low over open
fields to goshawks weaving agilely between tree trunks in dense
forest. Female hawks are invariably larger than the males.
Hawks attack using their talons, piercing their prey and subduing
it with repeated grasps if necessary. When the victim is
sufficiently restrained, it will tear off pieces with its beak to eat.
Hawks will not hunt people—people are just too big and
dangerous to risk attacking for a meal. They attacks if a person
is getting too close to their nest, swooping down to rake the
intruder’s head with their talons.

Ok. that is far more detailed than "Like their close relatives, the eagles, hawks use their sharp eyes to locate prey before grabbing it in a high-speed dive. They are split into two sub-families, true hawks who mostly hunt in woodlands and buzzards who prefer open ground" but is missing a template:

Hawk: Acute Vision 2; Avian; Ham-Fisted 2; Reduced Consumption 1 (Cast-Iron Stomach); Wild Animal

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Varieties
(snip)

Buzzard (SM –4): Buzzards are broad-winged soaring hawks,
circling high over open land or perching on a tall lookout from
which they scan the ground below. Buzzards have a shrill,
piercing cry.
(snip)
An example from the current draft for "Hawk." I do have stats, but they're in a separate spreadsheet because that's much easier to work with when it comes to doing the massive layout task that is part of this book.

The separate spreadsheet has pluses and minuses. As shown by the DMG1e and the back of Classic: Bestiary it gives the GM a tight compact reference tool. The minus is flipping back and forth between the stats and the information on the creature.

Buzzard (Anon's Animal Album)
Diet: Carnivore (carrion and rodents).
Distribution: Africa, Europe, central and western Asia.
Habitat: Plains.
Niche: Diurnal ambush predator.
Size: 20″ long, 4′ wingspan; 1.9 lbs.
An opportunistic hunter, the buzzard usually waits on a perch until it spots prey, at which point it swoops down for the kill. European buzzards live there year-round, but others migrate between Africa and Asia with the seasons. The term ‘buzzard’ can also mean a turkey vulture.
ST: 2 HP: 2 Speed: 6.00
DX: 13 Will: 10 Move: 12/24 (air)
IQ: 3 Per: 12 1 (land)
HT: 11 FP: 11 SM: −3
Dodge: 9 Parry: 10 DR: 0
Claw (15): 1d−6 cutting. Reach C.
Peck (15): 1d−6 large piercing. Reach C.
Traits: Hawk.
Skills: Brawling-15; Survival-12.
Variants
This profile fits most small hawks and some more distantly
related raptors like harriers and kitees.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Each creature will have art.

That could be a problem. Even Classic: Bestiary didn't have pictures for every animal. Both my parents were printers and the biggest expense for printing back than was paper (color was a close second). More pictures = more pages = higher cost for print version.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

If folks have my other books, you know what my monster layout style will be.

Remember you are also selling this to people who are not familiar with your monster layout style. Also keep the range of your potential audience in mind.

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by maximara

The separate spreadsheet has pluses and minuses. As shown by the DMG1e and the back of Classic: Bestiary it gives the GM a tight compact reference tool. The minus is flipping back and forth between the stats and the information on the creature.

You misunderstand. The stats will be in the writeup. But my stat spreadsheet and my text writeups are in different places at this stage of production. The actual book will have stats right there on the page, like every single one of the monsters that have appeared in my books to date.

That could be a problem. Even Classic: Bestiary didn't have pictures for every animal. Both my parents were printers and the biggest expense for printing back than was paper (color was a close second). More pictures = more pages = higher cost for print version.

Printing is 10x less than getting the art to begin with. At least for custom art; if you're doing stock art or manipulating high-resolution public domain photos obviously the costs equalize. I'll be doing some of each.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by DaosusLeghki

As a subset of this, it indirectly addresses the "there's no GURPS bestiary" complaint many have.

The "there's no GURPS bestiary" complaint has always puzzled me.

If you want to be quick an dirty about it you just take the Classic bestiaries (Bestiary 150+; Classic: Fantasy Bestiary 250+; Classic: Space Bestiary 300+; Classic: Creatures of the Night 67) ignore PD and add +3 to Dodge.

That gave you a minimum of 767 animals and creatures to play with.

If you wanted an actual 4e stat style the Natural Encyclopedia has been around since July 2007 less than 3 years after 4e was published followed by It Came from the Forums a month later.

Even if you ingnored all the "is on page x of book y" in Natural Encyclopedia you had 513 (the author messed up on his math as per his breakdown there are 760 not 660 entries) 4e entires with 437 Converted from Classic. That is more than the Regular and Fantasy Classic Bestiaries combined (400+).

It Came from the Forums added another 160 Entries giving us a staggering 597 4e statted critters to use, effectively crushing the Regular, Fantasy, and Creatures of the Night Classic Bestiaries combined (~467).

Only the Classic: Space Bestiary with its 300+ entires makes the classic selection larger and according to DangerousThing and tshiggins Classic: Space Bestiary is not exactly highly regarded.

With all that could someone please explain to me how "there's no GURPS bestiary" makes any sense?

[Polkageist]

Because it IS quick and dirty. The linked books are rife with duplicates, cross-references, un-demonstrated templates, they're un-indexed and poorly laid out. Their presentation is utilitarian at best, largely artless, and hard to read. The descriptions where they exist are inconsistent. Access is via community links through the forums, or a decent level of skill with search engines. There's no marketing or storefront access that provides for easy linking (in an awareness sense, not literal web linking) with other products.

The classic bestiaries, despite the ability to quick and dirty convert aren't explicitly designed for 4e and to be honest I don't want a quick and dirty conversion (on either end, mine or the writers) I want a comprehensive and cohesive book. Sure there's quantity out there, but I want quality.

So, if anything the closest to a 4e bestiary would be the DF monsters series, and the DFRPG Monsters core book. Full of classic monsters, WITH artwork, WITH good layout, and easy to find when browsing products. This book I'm quite certain will slot in right next to them.

[Blind Mapmaker]

Originally Posted by maximara

The "there's no GURPS bestiary" complaint has always puzzled me.

If you want to be quick an dirty about it you just take the Classic bestiaries (Bestiary 150+; Classic: Fantasy Bestiary 250+; Classic: Space Bestiary 300+; Classic: Creatures of the Night 67) ignore PD and add +3 to Dodge.
<snip>

The problem here is ease of use, good quality illustrations, quick stats and variants on the same page together with descriptions and hints on how to use them in an encounter.

Don't get me wrong. I think GURPS Animalia is a great resource for the real-world animals and the none of the 4th Edition creature collections are bad. Stilln sometimes you want a big book (or pdf) you can just reach at and find the monster you want, not to run around with your desktop search to look through your 400+ files GURPS folder for whichever version of griffin you remember reading about five years ago.

Edit: Mostly ninja-ed by Polkageist. Couldn't agree more.

What we have now is just too many bits & pieces that are all above average, but kind of disjointed. As of now, I'm already using the bestiary in Douglas Cole's Hall of Judgment more than I ever thought I would, but that's just 33 pages of monsters and foes. I'd dearly love to have a book four times that size.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by maximara

The "there's no GURPS bestiary" complaint has always puzzled me.

Me too.
Besides the Third Edition and fan stuff we also have, specifically for Fourth Edition.
Creatures of the Night
Dragons
Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1
Zombies

And more that came out after I made my list. I see I need to update it to add several more books!

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Me too.
Besides the Third Edition and fan stuff we also have, specifically for Fourth Edition.
Creatures of the Night
Dragons
Dungeon Fantasy Monsters 1
Zombies

And more that came out after I made my list. I see I need to update it to add several more books!

Horror. The Fourth Edition Horror book is a phenomenal - and canonical - resource for monsters and how to use them.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

Horror. The Fourth Edition Horror book is a phenomenal - and canonical - resource for monsters and how to use them.

Yeah, I love that book, list it on my genre page but really should add it to my monster and NPC page too, now that you mention it.
Many of those pages need me to go take a fresh look and add supplements that came out after I first put them up (or last edited them).

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by maximara

Ah now that is what I was looking for. But the "get what you pay for" and its official may be poor arguments. Compare

American Black Bear
(...)

to

Black Bear
(...)

Now which do you think is official (Basic Set) and which is from Anon's Animal Album? The second is the official one. Now which is more detailed and therefore potentially more useful?

When I mentioned "official" being important to many groups, I was specifically thinking of those groups where sources other than official print - like lwcamps' GURPS Animalia, your referenced Anon's Animal Album, or in some cases even official rulings by Kromm on the forum - are not allowed. If you want a character who transforms into, say, a grizzly bear (Bloodlust and Very Beautiful on the base character are optional, of course), you've got to use the rather, well, basic build from Basic Set - sure, the entries from GURPS Animalia and Anon's Animal Album and other online resources may be more detailed, even be demonstrably more true to the actual animal, but they aren't available. Such a GM/group may be inclined to allow for whatever grizzly bear equivalent shows up in Doug's Nordlond Beastiary.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by Varyon

If you want a character who transforms into, say, a grizzly bear (Bloodlust and Very Beautiful on the base character are optional, of course), you've got to use the rather, well, basic build from Basic Set

For shapeshifters I think DF : Allies and Totem and Nature Spirits are good sources that include point totals.