Anon's Animal Album

[Sam Baughn]

Originally Posted by maximara

It also does weird things. Like have Foot Manipulators [-6] for some birds when it really should be Extra Arms 2 (Temporary Disadvantage: Legless) (-30%) [14] per the example on B115

Foot Manipulators [-6] is how it is done in Template Toolkit 2, but it does seem to have some screw-ups relating to them. The birds with foot manipulators should have the avian meta-trait, while apes should get semi-upright and extra arms (foot manipulators), and monkeys and opossums should probably have horizontal and extra arms (foot manipulators). I don't think anything in this supplement should actually have foot manipulators as a disadvantage except as part of a meta-trait.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Well this includes a good number of animals AND the worked cost for the animal templates in GURPS Basic so might be worth your $$
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/...nature-spirits

Ah, thanks!

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Well this includes a good number of animals AND the worked cost for the animal templates in GURPS Basic so might be worth your $$
http://www.warehouse23.com/products/...nature-spirits

I don't know if one page is worth it unless you are going to use the rest of the material in the work. The animal totems are not the animals themselves and so, IMHO, don't count.

Also the one page of animals has one of the steps being "buying IQ back to 10," If that means what I think it means a Black bear, which normally has IQ 4 is is now 120 points more expensive than it should be ([120] to get it up to 10)

The best way to see if the numbers make any sense is to take one and using the Human baseline look at the total using the information from B455-460.

Here is the Chimpanzee (B456):

ST 11 [10]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 6 [-80]; HT 12 [20]; Will 10 [20]; Per 10 [20]; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7 [5]; Arm ST +3 [15]; Bad Grip 2 [-10]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 [5]; Sharp Teeth [`]; Wild Animal [-30]; Climbing-14 [2]

Total sans Wild Animal [43], with Wild Animal [13].

That is way off of the [99] sans Wild Animal Totems gives us and Dead Broke is excluded so we don't have to worry about the [-25] that would have added to the Basic Set's total.

IMHO it is better to just pull out GCS, set the point total to "0", and plug in attributes and traits adjusting the total for Wild Animal and Dead Broke. That is how I put together the Chimpanzee above.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

Ah, thanks!

Well hold on a minute.... See my reply below and decide if $5 is worth the time saved in math for just those 19 animals. The rest is great for its intended use as partial shapeshifting but not a full animal form. Though it does go into detail on Alternate Form and might be helpful there.

Originally Posted by maximara

I don't know if one page is worth it unless you are going to use the rest of the material in the work. The animal totems are not the animals themselves and so, IMHO, don't count.

Also the one page of animals has one of the steps being "buying IQ back to 10," If that means what I think it means a Black bear, which normally has IQ 4 is is now 120 points more expensive than it should be ([120] to get it up to 10)

The best way to see if the numbers make any sense is to take one and using the Human baseline look at the total using the information from B455-460.

Here is the Chimpanzee (B456):

ST 11 [10]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 6 [-80]; HT 12 [20]; Will 10 [20]; Per 10 [20]; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7 [5]; Arm ST +3 [15]; Bad Grip 2 [-10]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 [5]; Sharp Teeth [`]; Wild Animal [-30]; Climbing-14 [2]

Total sans Wild Animal [43], with Wild Animal [13].

That is way off of the [99] sans Wild Animal Totems gives us and Dead Broke is excluded so we don't have to worry about the [-25] that would have added to the Basic Set's total.

IMHO it is better to just pull out GCS, set the point total to "0", and plug in attributes and traits adjusting the total for Wild Animal and Dead Broke. That is how I put together the Chimpanzee above.

Yeah, my bad I had forgotten I pulled out the full manifestations to save space.
As to the discrepancies in coost for the animals listed on p. 14 the costs are what a typical caster would use for shapechange either with Alternate Form, Morph, or a spell where IQ would not be lowered and per Kromm Dead Broke does not count as a valid disadvantage on the template since its just a temporary state.
So its useful for that and maybe 1 other animal but the rest as you say might not fit his needs.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Refplace

Yeah, my bad I had forgotten I pulled out the full manifestations to save space.
As to the discrepancies in coost for the animals listed on p. 14 the costs are what a typical caster would use for shapechange either with Alternate Form, Morph, or a spell where IQ would not be lowered and per Kromm Dead Broke does not count as a valid disadvantage on the template since its just a temporary state.
So its useful for that and maybe 1 other animal but the rest as you say might not fit his needs.

But the totals are still wonked bt the basic set

Remember that Alternate Form and Morph are based on racial totals, and yes that does mean the same form doesn't cost the came across all races.

The formula for Alternate Form is 15 + (form racial - native racial) x 0.9. If (form racial - native racial) < 0 than it is just [15]

Chimpanzee is [43] since we are told to ignore Wild animal.

Alternate Form for a human turning into a Chimpanzee is 15 + (43-0)*0.9 or 53.7 which rounds up to [54]...nowhere near the [99] we are given.

For a Elf (Fantasy) at [70] the cost drops to [15] because being an Elf costs more than the racial for a Chimpanzee.

Yes, this does make Alternate Form a royal pain to deal with because it has no set value but varies depending on the race that has it.

Morph is even worse as at 100 points one is limited to any form not worth any more than your native racial one. For a human to change into a Chimpanzee Morph would cost [154]: 100 minimum for Morph and 54 for the racial since we are throwing out Wild Animal.

An Elf only has to spend [100] because their racial gives them [70] to play with

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by SilvercatMoonpaw

What I need is a book of animal templates so I can play them.

I think he was asking here for the templates so he could play them, which is a common enough question. Most of the time when asked its in regard to using some form of shapeshifting -either a power or spell. When using either ability it lets you keep your higher IQ and most players will want to do so if they can afford it.

Originally Posted by maximara

Also the one page of animals has one of the steps being "buying IQ back to 10," If that means what I think it means a Black bear, which normally has IQ 4 is is now 120 points more expensive than it should be ([120] to get it up to 10)

The best way to see if the numbers make any sense is to take one and using the Human baseline look at the total using the information from B455-460.

Here is the Chimpanzee (B456):

ST 11 [10]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 6 [-80]; HT 12 [20]; Will 10 [20]; Per 10 [20]; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7 [5]; Arm ST +3 [15]; Bad Grip 2 [-10]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 [5]; Sharp Teeth [`]; Wild Animal [-30]; Climbing-14 [2]

Total sans Wild Animal [43], with Wild Animal [13].

That is way off of the [99] sans Wild Animal Totems gives us and Dead Broke is excluded so we don't have to worry about the [-25] that would have added to the Basic Set's total.

So its 23 points from the stats above (using your numbers here, I haven't started from scratch like I did when writing the book) and adding the following.

• * Assumed Animal Form (Totems, p. 5) adds cannot speak and speak with animals of same type [-5]
  * Drop Wild Animal [30] so they dont have Bestial, Hidebound, or limited IQ.
  * Increase IQ to the baseline of 10 [80]
  * Drop the bonus to Will [-20] and Per [-20] to keep them at 10, the standard for this animal.
  giving 88 points, hmm not my 99.

ok, you didnt include Semi-upright [-5] and Climbing at DX+2 [8]-14 costs 6 more points than you listed. Also you changed it from Ham-Fisted 1 [-5] to Bad Grip 2 [-10].
Off by 3 points? hmm.
Ok from scratch then (Chimpanzee, p. B455) as modified according to Totems.
ST 11 [10]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].
Will 10; Per 10; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7 [5].
SM 0; 140 lbs.
Traits: Arm ST 3 [15]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 [5]; Ham-Fisted 1 [-5]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Assumed Animal Form [-5].
Skills: Climbing-14 [8]. 94 points....
Might be errata, I need to look closer to see where that 5 points difference is.

As to the bit about how the total price of Alternate Form changes based on the relative difference between the two racial templates (but only for the most expensive template) I dont see any relevance here. The person I responded to expressed a desire for template costs. You would use that to calculate the energy cost for a spell or the point costs for an advantage like Alternate Form and doing that is far faster than doing that plus the math for the template.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Refplace

So its 23 points from the stats above (using your numbers here, I haven't started from scratch like I did when writing the book) and adding the following.

• * Assumed Animal Form (Totems, p. 5) adds cannot speak and speak with animals of same type [-5]
  * Drop Wild Animal [30] so they dont have Bestial, Hidebound, or limited IQ.
  

• Makes sense
  
  

  Originally Posted by Refplace

  * Increase IQ to the baseline of 10 [80]

  Uh, IIUC that is not how that works. The four main attributes are built from the race that does the changing not the race they change into. A race is always built from the human base line ie ST 10, IQ 10, DX 10, and HT 10. The secondary attributes are built from what those are.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Refplace

  * Drop the bonus to Will [-20] and Per [-20] to keep them at 10, the standard for this animal.

  That is correct.
  

  Originally Posted by Refplace

  giving 88 points, hmm not my 99.

Originally Posted by Refplace

ok, you didnt include Semi-upright [-5] and Climbing at DX+2 [8]-14 costs 6 more points than you listed. Also you changed it from Ham-Fisted 1 [-5] to Bad Grip 2 [-10].

I didn't include those because this is all the Basic Set itself gave me to work with:
ST 11; DX 12; IQ 6; HT 12.
Will 10; Per 10; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7. SM 0; 140 lbs.
Traits: Arm ST +3; Bad Grip 2; Brachiator; DR 1; Sharp Teeth; Wild Animal.
Skills: Climbing-14.

Regarding Climbing-14, I should have uses GCS to make use I was doing the math right. Oops.

Originally Posted by Refplace

Off by 3 points? hmm.
Ok from scratch then (Chimpanzee, p. B455) as modified according to Totems.
ST 11 [10]; DX 12 [40]; IQ 10 [0]; HT 12 [20].
Will 10; Per 10; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7 [5].
SM 0; 140 lbs.
Traits: Arm ST 3 [15]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 [5]; Ham-Fisted 1 [-5]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Semi-Upright [-5]; Assumed Animal Form [-5].
Skills: Climbing-14 [8]. 94 points....
Might be errata, I need to look closer to see where that 5 points difference is.

Again, IIUC that is not how alternate form works. The Fantasy Orc racial is [-9] even if it is a Human with IQ 10 changing into an Orc. So that alternate form is [15] for a Human barring any limitations or enhancements.

Originally Posted by Refplace

As to the bit about how the total price of Alternate Form changes based on the relative difference between the two racial templates (but only for the most expensive template) I dont see any relevance here. The person I responded to expressed a desire for template costs.

The exact words were "What I need is a book of animal templates so I can play them. " (sic) All racial are figured from the Human baseline.

If he wants actual base animal templates and I had to recommend a book I would point to Dungeon Fantasy 5: Allies.

It gives you 19 critters (10 natural, 9 supernatural) to work with that are fully stated out with points every step of the way.
one of these is the Chimp(anzee); [54] when we remove the Familiar [-22] disadvantage.

For shapeshifting we have to throw out all the mental advantages (Wild Animal and Dead broke aren't there so we don't have to worry about those). This gets us another [12] for [66] The alternate form for a human is [15] + [66*.9 - 0] or [75] rounding up.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by maximara

It gives you 19 critters (10 natural, 9 supernatural) to work with that are fully stated out with points every step of the way.
one of these is the Chimp(anzee); [54] when we remove the Familiar [-22] disadvantage.

I messed up. I forgot the point total was for the familar Thankfully each creature is fully statted out so I can find the correct point totals and boy is Chimp expensive but then again it uses IQ 10 not IQ 6.

Not adjusting for that is [138]...ouch. With the adjustment it is a saner [58]. Alternate form for a human is [68]...still nowhere near the [99] totem gives us. Using the IQ 10 gets us [140].

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by maximara

I didn't include those because this is all the Basic Set itself gave me to work with:
ST 11; DX 12; IQ 6; HT 12.
Will 10; Per 10; Speed 6; Dodge 9; Move 7. SM 0; 140 lbs.
Traits: Arm ST +3; Bad Grip 2; Brachiator; DR 1; Sharp Teeth; Wild Animal.
Skills: Climbing-14.

What printing are you using? I am using 7th Printing.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Refplace

What printing are you using? I am using 7th Printing.

3rd printing.