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Old 05-22-2023, 03:11 AM   #21
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
A: IQ should contribute to memory points at start and on advancement.

A1: Increasing IQ adds memory points, but you can spend flat 500 XPs per memory point if you like.

B: IQ shouldn't have anything to do with memory points at start or on advancement.

C: The current system.

Which do you choose?
A. for sure, given only those choices. It's simple, fair, elegant, and proven to work well over many decades.

That said, I would still prefer a variant on just that, one which would allow all PCs to have a bit more by way of talents. Like spells, there are way more talents to choose from than ever get seen in play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
TBH, restoring the 'classic' progression scheme is a great solution to the LE problem. It is an elegant, well-balanced and time-tested design. If you go that route, however, I would not recommend attempting to accommodate the LE feature of purchasing talents/spells directly with XP. Stick to the original IQ-increase dependency. It's much cleaner.
Exactly -- no need to muddy the waters.

Honestly, if all we all want is to see everyone having room for a few more talents, we don't need to get all complicated to do it. Go back to the classic scheme just as you say, but with one caveat: instead of memory points is equal to IQ, go with memory points is equal to IQ+x, where x = 2 or 3 or even 5, just so long as it's some consistent fixed number. Problem solved.
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Old 05-22-2023, 06:31 AM   #22
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post
TBH, restoring the 'classic' progression scheme is a great solution to the LE problem. It is an elegant, well-balanced and time-tested design. If you go that route, however, I would not recommend attempting to accommodate the LE feature of purchasing talents/spells directly with XP. Stick to the original IQ-increase dependency. It's much cleaner.
I concur that the Classic system is cleaner especially from an accounting perspective. There was only one thing on which XP could be spent, attribute points, and IQ was the limit on Talent points. But it was also why we had high IQs to accommodate multiple talents. The old joke was, "Conan the Librarian".

However, I do appreciate Legacy TFT's allowance for spending XP on talents. Although, I believe that 500 per IQ point is too expensive, it does get rid of the "Conan the Librarian" situation. If you capture the starting attributes, XP earned, XP spent, and starting list of talents, the accounting in Legacy works. I have set up such an accounting system for all of my PCs while I was learning the Legacy TFT system. I don't require it as a GM but I strongly encourage it because I don't want to be the bad guy later on when I default to the 'you should have tracked that better' stance when deciding which way to rule on something as a GM. I also try to GM as if I'm training new GMs. That way, I'm not seen as a guy with a God complex. Having players know the rules themselves can help to keep a GM honest and promote a higher level of participation.

Last edited by Bill_in_IN; 05-22-2023 at 09:16 AM.
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Old 05-22-2023, 06:39 AM   #23
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
A. for sure, given only those choices. It's simple, fair, elegant, and proven to work well over many decades.

That said, I would still prefer a variant on just that, one which would allow all PCs to have a bit more by way of talents. Like spells, there are way more talents to choose from than ever get seen in play.

Exactly -- no need to muddy the waters.

Honestly, if all we all want is to see everyone having room for a few more talents, we don't need to get all complicated to do it. Go back to the classic scheme just as you say, but with one caveat: instead of memory points is equal to IQ, go with memory points is equal to IQ+x, where x = 2 or 3 or even 5, just so long as it's some consistent fixed number. Problem solved.
With respect to the bolded text, is this at character start? Is it a fixed addition that is present throughout character development?
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Old 05-22-2023, 02:54 PM   #24
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
We use "A"
Oops, correcting myself, we play "A1"
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Old 05-22-2023, 04:31 PM   #25
Bill_in_IN
 
Join Date: Dec 2021
Location: Indiana
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
Oops, correcting myself, we play "A1"
So, if I interpret this correctly, you allow for learning talents per new IQ points achieved via spending XP with the option of spending XP to learn talents too.

So, if a PC increased their IQ and have on open IQ/memory point, they can learn a 1 point talent/spell or add 500 XP to learn a 2 IQ point talent? Am I following you correctly?
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Old 05-22-2023, 05:58 PM   #26
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
So, if I interpret this correctly, you allow for learning talents per new IQ points achieved via spending XP with the option of spending XP to learn talents too.

So, if a PC increased their IQ and have on open IQ/memory point, they can learn a 1 point talent/spell or add 500 XP to learn a 2 IQ point talent? Am I following you correctly?
Yes, you are correct.
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Old 05-22-2023, 06:27 PM   #27
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

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Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
With respect to the bolded text, is this at character start? Is it a fixed addition that is present throughout character development?
A fixed addition present throughout life. Otherwise it would go from extremely simple to quite complicated really fast.
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Old 05-22-2023, 08:39 PM   #28
TippetsTX
 
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Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: North Texas
Default Re: XP Cost for Talents/Spells

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN View Post
I concur that the Classic system is cleaner especially from an accounting perspective. There was only one thing on which XP could be spent, attribute points, and IQ was the limit on Talent points. But it was also why we had high IQs to accommodate multiple talents. The old joke was, "Conan the Librarian".
TBH, the 'genius barbarian' thing never bothered me that much. The issue I had with the 'classic' approach (one of very few) was that talent costs weren't consistent. Let's take RUNNING, for instance. Assuming I didn't select the talent at character creation, the cost I pay (in EP/XP) will vary depending on when I choose to acquire it. If learning RUNNING is my first priority once play starts, I spend only 250 EP to buy the 2 IQ points I need for the talent. If I wait and build up ST or DX first (or IQ for different talents), however, at TAP 35 the same talent costs 375 EP. Further into my progression the cost for RUNNING continues to escalate... 500 EP at TAP 38, 2000 EP at TAP 42, etc. That just seemed nuts to me (eventhough I stand by my previous and seemingly contradictory "it's much cleaner" statement).

Fixed XP costs for talents or spells makes far more sense IMO in spite of being a bit more complex. Characters should pay more XP for more potent abilities as they qualify for them, but the effort to acquire RUNNING (or any other specific talent) should be the same regardless of when they want to learn it. That's why this particular element of the LE ruleset really resonated with me. It's also why I don't find attempts to combine the fixed-cost model with the 'classic' IQ = TP approach attractive. It exacerbates the issue described above.
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Last edited by TippetsTX; 05-22-2023 at 08:44 PM.
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