[Spaceships] Are spaceships unrealistically cheap?

[thrash]

Originally Posted by ericthered

One open space can provide food "sufficient for the entire vessel".

This got clarified in Pyramid 3/49 (p. 24): "Design Switch: Ecological Life Support." I don't know when this will get ported back to the regular rules, though.

[LordMunchkin]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Open space is an odd one because it gives a firm area to mass ratio for "open space". This would make sense if the main weight concern was atmosphere, but its not. It also adds areas slower than it gains mass, which is kind of the reverse of what you would expect.

What bothers me is that when I DO come up with a TL based population per acre of vertical arming scale, the masses don't make sense. Like say, 1 acre=1000 pop at TL 10. With that, a SM +14 Open Space feeds 5000 people. Bump the mass up by a factor of 10 (SM +16) and you only feed 25,000 people if I'm understanding the scaling properly. Somehow, 10x the mass doesn't equal 10x the production...

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

Tell me more.

Another thing that makes me fuss is the Deep-Space and Interface Rates from Spaceships 2. They don't really mesh with reaction mass costs or Ultratech in the case of space elevator costs.

Add Spaceships 6 to the list too! It provides lots of wonderful industrial ships, but to use them in detail (in contrast to merely using them as set pieces) requires more in depth industrial rules (mining, manufacturing, etc). In addition, somehow spaceports are able to manufacture ships more quickly than equally equipped space stations. I thought the main purpose of spaceports was to act as a nexus of trade for goods and people (at least that's what 2 suggests with the trade requirements for spaceport presence) not manufacture ships? Quibbles I know...

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Wonder if there's _interest_ enough before you do it for Pyramid. Open spaces are one of the things that have already been included for the sake of completeness rather than their frequency of use..

There's the rub. I'm not sure how well the later Spaceships did, but I doubt there would be a lot of people interested in a more detailed spaceship system. I'll admit, I've been thinking about all this a lot while I've been working on my own hard scifi setting. As is, I think the system works fine for low resolution games (which are by far the majority of games in my experience).

What would be cool though is a pyramid article on asteroid mining with different technology level and superscience assumptions.

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

It pushes even the smallest tramp freighters (as opposed to shuttles) out of reach of PCs who aren't Wealth-heavy. No struggling bands of merry spacers. In fact that's a concern even without the cost increase relative to the official values.

Which I don't mind all too much. There are plenty of other ways to get a spaceship besides taking out a loan. Hell, stealing your first starship is a time honored tradition in a lot of peoples games!

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by LordMunchkin

. Hell, stealing your first starship is a time honored tradition in a lot of peoples games!

That probably requires more rules material about UT Forgery for all your ship documentation. :)

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by LordMunchkin

What bothers me is that when I DO come up with a TL based population per acre of vertical arming scale, the masses don't make sense. Like say, 1 acre=1000 pop at TL 10. With that, a SM +14 Open Space feeds 5000 people. Bump the mass up by a factor of 10 (SM +16) and you only feed 25,000 people if I'm understanding the scaling properly. Somehow, 10x the mass doesn't equal 10x the production...

Hmmm . . . use lots of Smaller System Open Spaces stacked on top of one another? Open Space seems to indicate area but not mention the higher 'ceilings' on larger SMs.