Hybrid magic

[Frost]

Something I read on the 'reputation for complexity' thread got me thinking, has anybody tried changing the default magic system so that rather than every spell being its own skill the spells are techniques of a single college skill in the same way as they are in book/path magic?

Would the gameplay effects be significantly different?

Would it appeal as an alternative to the current set up?

[johndallman]

That exists in print. It's "Ritual Magic", on pp. 200-201 of Magic. It was used in a campaign I ran a few years ago. It works OK, although it creates strong pressure for very high IQ+Magery, so that the defaulted spells are at practical levels.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by johndallman

That exists in print. It's "Ritual Magic", on pp. 200-201 of Magic. It was used in a campaign I ran a few years ago. It works OK, although it creates strong pressure for very high IQ+Magery, so that the defaulted spells are at practical levels.

"Strong pressure" might be British understatement for "needs a rules fix". The usual one is to limit Defaults. If you don't do this you end up with an "ideal build" that maximizes IQ and the base Ritual Magic Skill (which could be Thaumatology) while never putting points into College Skills or individual Spells.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Strong pressure" might be British understatement for "needs a rules fix". The usual one is to limit Defaults. If you don't do this you end up with an "ideal build" that maximizes IQ and the base Ritual Magic Skill (which could be Thaumatology) while never putting points into College Skills or individual Spells.

Ritual Path Magic handles this issue as you note, by limiting defaults. It also changes Magery from a Talent to a cap on Path skills (Paths being the RPM equivalent of Colleges, although they are broader). Basically, you have a single central skill, Thaumatology, from which all Path skills default at -6. But defaulted Path skills cannot exceed 12 (for Thaumatology 18+), and purchased Path skills cannot exceed the lower of 12+Magery and Thaumatology.

That system does still have strong incentive to ramp up IQ, as even a single-Path mage needs both Thaumatology and their chosen Path... plus unless you're dedicated to Path of Magic, you're probably going to want to be skilled in it as well (for Conditionals, although I think there's a Perk that lets you substitute a different Path there). But it's really hard to get away from that reliance when you're dealing with magic...

[Frost]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Strong pressure" might be British understatement for "needs a rules fix".

I got that feeling as well. If I do try it I will be looking to cap defaults although in a low point value game I don't think it could be pushed to really game braking levels anyway.

[mlangsdorf]

It's a fair bit of work, but since the default chains are arbitrary, you can have a more satisfactory ritual magic game by analyzing all the spells and setting appropriate default values for them. There's no good reason why casting Great Haste from default should be easy (default penalty -1) but Breath Steam is nearly impossible (default penalty -14).

I've got a spreadsheet of proposed, reasonable default values here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1245468497. If you want to revise default values for your own game, I suggest starting with it and adjusting to your own taste.

[Frost]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

It's a fair bit of work, but since the default chains are arbitrary, you can have a more satisfactory ritual magic game but analyzing all the spells and setting appropriate default values for them. There's no good reason why casting Great Haste from default should be easy (default penalty -1) but Breath Steam is nearly impossible (default penalty -14).

I've got a spreadsheet of proposed, reasonable default values here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1245468497. If you want to revise default values for your own game, I suggest starting with it and adjusting to your own taste.

Thanks, that looks like it should help.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by mlangsdorf

It's a fair bit of work, but since the default chains are arbitrary, you can have a more satisfactory ritual magic game but analyzing all the spells and setting appropriate default values for them. There's no good reason why casting Great Haste from default should be easy (default penalty -1) but Breath Steam is nearly impossible (default penalty -14).

e.

Yes, prerequisite count is evil and should be driven forth with fire and sword.

Slightly more seriously, if anyone wonders the major problem with prerequisite count IMHO is that it takes what was originally a minor limitation on the learning of Spells and turns it into a major limitation on the casting of Spells. It also does this while retaining the original limiting factor of energy cost to cast Spells.

That's double-dipping on difficulty and just having to keep up with prerequisite count every time you cast is a non-trivial nuisance. If you bought your prerequisites the way you did in original Magic you only had to track them once.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Yes, prerequisite count is evil and should be driven forth with fire and sword.

Slightly more seriously, if anyone wonders the major problem with prerequisite count IMHO is that it takes what was originally a minor limitation on the learning of Spells and turns it into a major limitation on the casting of Spells. It also does this while retaining the original limiting factor of energy cost to cast Spells.

That's double-dipping on difficulty and just having to keep up with prerequisite count every time you cast is a non-trivial nuisance. If you bought your prerequisites the way you did in original Magic you only had to track them once.

Maybe magery prerequisite is a better indicator? default to skill -2-(magery prereq x2)? That feels a little high, but not much, and its pretty easy to calculate.

Originally Posted by johndallman

That exists in print. It's "Ritual Magic", on pp. 200-201 of Magic. It was used in a campaign I ran a few years ago. It works OK, although it creates strong pressure for very high IQ+Magery, so that the defaulted spells are at practical levels.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

"Strong pressure" might be British understatement for "needs a rules fix". The usual one is to limit Defaults. If you don't do this you end up with an "ideal build" that maximizes IQ and the base Ritual Magic Skill (which could be Thaumatology) while never putting points into College Skills or individual Spells.

That's just Gurps. Generally you have pressure to maximize and rely on a single skill (if you can get away with it), a talent (if you need a cluster of related skills) or an attribute. That's the way I see the vast majority of effective characters built: one trait gets a bunch of points and it defines the character, be it broadsword, craftiness, or IQ.

Originally Posted by Varyon

Ritual Path Magic handles this issue as you note, by limiting defaults. It also changes Magery from a Talent to a cap on Path skills (Paths being the RPM equivalent of Colleges, although they are broader). Basically, you have a single central skill, Thaumatology, from which all Path skills default at -6. But defaulted Path skills cannot exceed 12 (for Thaumatology 18+), and purchased Path skills cannot exceed the lower of 12+Magery and Thaumatology.

Of course, a pyramid article went back and added talents back into RPM, because talents are just so nice to have in Gurps.

[Refplace]

Originally Posted by ericthered

Maybe magery prerequisite is a better indicator? default to skill -2-(magery prereq x2)? That feels a little high, but not much, and its pretty easy to calculate.

From my rules on Book/Path magic
Converting GURPS Magic Spells: When converting a spell from GURPS Magic, ignore prerequisites and assign -0 to -2 skill with a further -1 per level of required Magery.