[Basic] Advantage of the Week: Allies and Ally Group

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by johndallman

This may well be true. What I was trying to say was that doing the tailoring looks more fiddly than many kinds of GURPS advantage customisation, simply because the three separate advantages we have at present usually describe three different kinds of interaction from the characters' point of view. I wasn't saying it is impossible, only that it may be harder than it looks on the surface, and pointing out a reason why.

Thank you for clarifying; I can't say that I think it looks easy, but I do believe that even if difficult, it would be worthwhile. Actually, right now I am trying to think of what the actual division between Patron and Ally truly is: is it just that it is more acceptable for a Patron to take a "hands off" approach?

Example: Your Ally is a wizard built on the same points as you. If you're going dungeon diving and the GM rolls for the wizard's Frequency of Appearance check and makes it, you expect the wizard to accompany you unless there is a most excellent reason for the wizard to abstain. On the other hand, if the wizard is built on over 150% of your CP value, under the same circumstances it may even be surprising for the wizard to accompany you.

I guess I find this distinction to be significantly constraining and artificial: given that the GM needs to keep the game running smoothly, perhaps we all need to alter our expectations. If it will improve or at least not "break" the game, let the wizard that (under the current rules) would be a Patron join in the dungeon diving (assuming it fits the character as well). If the (under the current rules) Ally wizard would be an issue to take on this particular adventure, perhaps he is the one to give useful information, make useful arrangements, provide some equipment, etc.?

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Example: Your Ally is a wizard built on the same points as you. If you're going dungeon diving and the GM rolls for the wizard's Frequency of Appearance check and makes it, you expect the wizard to accompany you unless there is a most excellent reason for the wizard to abstain. On the other hand, if the wizard is built on over 150% of your CP value, under the same circumstances it may even be surprising for the wizard to accompany you.

The restraint on Allies of over 150% is simply to make PCs do their own work, rather than buy powerful Allies and have them do everything. That gets quite noticeable with lower-point Allies in the Transhuman Space setting, but it's reasonably appropriate to that style of high-tech environment.

A 125% wizard who expects to accompany you has a different relationship with you to a 125% wizard who suggests things you might like to do, and occasionally supplies a MacGuffin in exchange for a share of the loot The fact that they cost a character the same number of points doesn't mean they're the same thing.

[sir_pudding]

In Desolation Road I used the rules allowing non-sapient Allies of higher levels for the Peshang battle-constructs. This worked very well through the entire campaign and I never noticed any of the problems that other people seem to have with this.

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by johndallman

The restraint on Allies of over 150% is simply to make PCs do their own work, rather than buy powerful Allies and have them do everything. That gets quite noticeable with lower-point Allies in the Transhuman Space setting, but it's reasonably appropriate to that style of high-tech environment.

A 125% wizard who expects to accompany you has a different relationship with you to a 125% wizard who suggests things you might like to do, and occasionally supplies a MacGuffin in exchange for a share of the loot The fact that they cost a character the same number of points doesn't mean they're the same thing.

Right... and sometimes its the same wizard. That was my intended point; if you start with a core Advantage to represent an NPC with some form of positive disposition towards your PC and then modify it, you can create the traditional Ally, Contact and Patron relationships and the fact that they logically tend to overlap is no longer an issue. If you want to make sure they don't overlap, it becomes a feature (you can still do that, at least if one can figure out the correct build).

Again, what the... erm... until I think of something better (or someone suggests it to me) I'll go with "Positively Disposed Non-Player Character" or PDNPC. So the PDNPC's build and actions are the purview of the GM. If the Patron-level PDNPC would "break" the adventure by fighting directly alongside of the PCs... it doesn't even if under normal circumstances it would, the same way one would have to handle an Ally-level PDNPC if it was going to cause problems for that adventure. Specific Modifiers can cause the PDNPC to function in the traditional Ally, Contact and Patron roles apart from story necessity. Having to restrict high value PDNPC's to the roles of Patron and/or Contact becomes a campaign feature (and point saving Limitation).

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Again, what the... erm... until I think of something better (or someone suggests it to me) I'll go with "Positively Disposed Non-Player Character" or PDNPC. So the PDNPC's build and actions are the purview of the GM. If the Patron-level PDNPC would "break" the adventure by fighting directly alongside of the PCs... it doesn't, just like you would have to work around the Ally-level PDNPC. Specific Modifiers can cause the PDNPC to function in the traditional Ally, Contact and Patron roles apart from story necessity. Having to restrict high value PDNPC's to the roles of Patron and/or Contact becomes a campaign feature (and point saving Limitation).

You'd need to allow for organizational Patrons (which IME are much more common than individuals), which might cause weird interactions. Can you then take an organization as an Ally?

[Otaku]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

You'd need to allow for organizational Patrons (which IME are much more common than individuals), which might cause weird interactions. Can you then take an organization as an Ally?

Excellent question.

I didn't want to confuse the issue, but the "Group" designations of the different Advantages can also hopefully be folded together (I don't know if one can merge both of these together, however). Compare and contrast an organizational Patron with an Ally Group: it gets very hazy very quickly. Contact Groups again seem to be a limited form of an organizational Patron or Ally Group.

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by ericthered

I also balk at equipment as allies. I find it attracts far more munchkins than legitimate users. I like my allies to be people.

Gawd, yes. More than the cheapness of the ability, the use of it to get equipment annoys me terribly, to the point that I won't consider such a build as valid in my own games.

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Gawd, yes. More than the cheapness of the ability, the use of it to get equipment annoys me terribly, to the point that I won't consider such a build as valid in my own games.

As I said it worked very well in Desolation Road, and I'm not sure what other trait would have worked better. I didn't have any of the problems that people seem to think this would cause, either.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by Otaku

Excellent question.

I didn't want to confuse the issue, but the "Group" designations of the different Advantages can also hopefully be folded together (I don't know if one can merge both of these together, however). Compare and contrast an organizational Patron with an Ally Group: it gets very hazy very quickly. Contact Groups again seem to be a limited form of an organizational Patron or Ally Group.

A Contact Group seems to basically be a Wildcard Skill Contact, with the group versus individual element having no mechanical significance.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

Gawd, yes. More than the cheapness of the ability, the use of it to get equipment annoys me terribly, to the point that I won't consider such a build as valid in my own games.

Equipment as allies has a specialized sphere of application. It certainly works when the campaign is Mighty Morphine Rangers and it can be used as an alternative to signature gear for big ticket items.