So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? - Page 3

swordtart · 06-23-2012, 01:02 PM

If course when discussing start characters we should not forget the classic fail condition inherent in the rules.

1) Each character begins with 0 wealth.
2) Each character starts with 0 prestige.
3) A character with no money must sell something or starve. A character with no money and no car is obviously afraid to enter the arena, so his prestige drops to zero and he’s out of the game.

By this logic as soon as you generate the character he is out of the game ;(

Maybe those characters that volunteer for AM night are desperately running from the accountants who can with the wave of a calculator destroy them.

That sounds like an Uncle Schmalbert gadget.

swordtart · 06-23-2012, 01:06 PM

Middle class is corporate wage slave, they don't need money at all. John Company looks after them, and makes sure they don't wander off reservation ;).

swordtart · 06-23-2012, 04:29 PM

This from GURPS Autoduel (2nd Ed).

The AM night winner is awarded; his winning car, plus the 3/4 of the
salvage value of the losers. The arena will repair damage to the winning
car (using the proceeds from the others, naturally) or buy back the winning car for the same salvage price.

This means winner takes all but means he is encouraged to be efficient since he only gets 3/4 of the salvage value (component cost - repair cost). Heavy armour damage will drop this salvage value heavily. 3/4 Salvage value is a better deal than the local garage as you only get 1/2 salvage value there.

ak_aramis · 06-23-2012, 07:33 PM

The problem with GAD is the same as the problem with G:Ogre - it doesn't faithfully attend to the setting, it bends the setting to GURPS. (Same issue with G:VTM and G:Mage.)

Unlike the others, it got the feel right despite that.

For reference, the Autoduel I've been referring to is the Autoduel Computer Game. Where in, the Arena lets you salvage what you can haul, even during the duel if you're stupid enough to do so, provided you can still drive out.

In Deluxe Car Wars, winner is the survivor with the highest prestige. He gets his vehicle, if it still runs, and the salvage value of his kills. Nobody else gets paid.

Jeffr0 might have pocket handy, and tell us what the conditions there are; mine's not easily accessed (despite being 6' away).

swordtart · 06-24-2012, 02:07 AM

I checked the third edition with the Delux edition and the wording the wording is broadly the same. If you look at the actual wording it is slightly different to how you state it.

Winner is survivor with highest prestige (same).

A driver (note not the winning driver) who gets out with his car can keep it and salvage his kills.

This brings up several interesting points.

This allows every particpant to leave with thier car if they are lucky or careful. This point is echoed in Gurps Autoduel and by the 30 second rule in Delux (which isn't in 3rd). So the original intention was that in a new start everyone could have a car from a single AM night event.

There isn't any listed benefit for the winner, but since he only needs to not be killed (He doesn't actually need to make any kills) and have the highest prestige (which he could have had before entering) perhaps this is reasonable.

The arena is rewarding behaviour here that supports their aim. Survive (so make the combat longer). Kill other cars.

As GURPS Autoduel was the first GURPS suppliment it makes sense that it most closely follows the game setting. As CW mutated randomly over time perhaps the changes in GURPS Autoduel are an attempt at making the rules more consistent, rather than make them more consistent with GURPS.

I am not sure a computer game produced by another company can be relied on as much as a product from the same company.

Jeffr0 · 06-24-2012, 06:16 AM

I wrote this up waaay back before starting our third and longest running campaign with Earlburt. (We did Corporate first for five sessions or so, then a rp campaign for six sessions or so, and then the team amateur night campaign.)

Note that the Aaron Allston style was probably first written up in Autoduel Champions... and was repeated in GURPS Autoduel. Aaron was pretty much the Champions game master of his day and he wrote some of the best rpg books of all time. (Strike Force?) Just based on that, I wouldn't want to discount his view of how to launch a CAR WARS campaign. At the same time, you can expect different regions in different eras to have different approaches.

swordtart · 06-24-2012, 11:34 AM

A follow on train fothought from the 1st edition and deluxe version.

The behaviour rewarded is survival and the sponsorship is from the networks (not the arenas).

This moves us away from the bread and circuses model where Amateurs are just cannon fodder (and therefore where cheap recyclable and washable cars are needed).

A plausible model is that these AM events are run as an apprenticeship / scouting exercise. AMs that do well (have decent prestige) will get the sponsorship they need. Sponsors for these events will provide decent cars as they don't want their stars of the future getting killed before they can make any money out of them. Sponsors will want to get talent under contract early in their career when their loyalty is cheapest.

ammulder · 06-26-2012, 07:09 PM

Well at the end of the day, if the point of this discussion is how to start a campaign with some role-playing elements, doesn't the nature of the players have more of an impact? I mean, if you're trying to get 6 people playing regularly, repeated amateur nights where many of them lose and/or die is probably not the way to go... Sure you're likely to get one or two sponsored, but not very likely a whole group.

Unless it really is a team event, or you structure it so death is less likely and even losers get salvage or whatever. I don't really see div 10 with a CA Frame, but why not give all the drivers body armor or component armor at least? Surely there's more drama if the driver actually takes a hit and then the camera follows the nail-biting ride to see if he can make the exit before someone puts another through the breach...

And I do prefer a variety of vehicles. Maybe a small chinese menu of weapons/options on the same frame, or at least like we did recently a blow-through concealed weapon that you can choose which facing to mount on (the arena keeps several of each on hand, I suppose...) It doesn't have to be three different weapons on each vehicle, so newbies can focus, but 6 cars with MGs, I dunno.

On the skills and prestige, I had fun tracking that in our corporate campaign, but the reality was no individual character went through enough events to actually see much concrete improvement. But maybe this is a subject for another thread.

Angrytubist · 06-26-2012, 10:31 PM

Here's what I'm considering for my next Car Wars "campaign". (I don't care if arena finances make "sense" I just want multiple players to be able to run continuing characters).

Character Creation: 30 pt chars, +0 skills cost 5 skill points instead of 10, crew body armor is never counted against division cost. If prestige is used to calculate prize money use the highest rated crew member.

AADA Arena Prize Structure

Appearance fee (Awarded to all surviving crews) = 1/10 car value + 5x characters prestige: 3 skill points per crew member.

1st place = 100% car value : +3 skill points
2nd place = 50% car value: +2 skill points
3rd place =25% car value : +1 skill points

Kill Bonus (mobility or weapons) = 1/10 of kills value + character prestige

Duels last 30 sec after which any remaining mobile vehicle may leave. A crew who does not surrender and maintains possession of a "killed" vehicle retains ownership.

Salvage: a driver may salvage their kills unless the crew retains possession. the arena will buy salvage at 1/2 value, cash on the barrel head.

Amateur Nights: prize money is halved, salvage rules are the same.

BLUD Duels

Unlimited costs, duels are divided by chassis type, prizes are high, usually over 50K winner-take-all, and kill bonuses per vehicle, and per crew member. BLUD arenas pay full price for salvage.

Sponsors : Winning duels and making kills attracts sponsors, here are some "standard" rates.

Documented "kill" (video) = 1/10 of kill value + 2x character prestige
Ace status = 100% division value + 5x character prestige
Double Ace status = 200% division value + 10x character prestige
Triple Ace Status+ 300% division value + 15x character prestige

1st place in duel = 75% division value + 3x character prestige
2nd place in duel = 50% division value + 2x character prestige
3rd place in duel = 25% division value + 1x character prestige
Surviving duel = 10% division value + 1x character prestige

Road duels count as 10k duels for ace status, ace status is tracked separately in all divisions.

It seems like even if you lose, you should be able to save up enough for a 5k car in 2 or 3 duels, what do y'all think?

Jeffr0 · 06-27-2012, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angrytubist

Duels last 30 sec after which any remaining mobile vehicle may leave. A crew who does not surrender and maintains possession of a "killed" vehicle retains ownership.

Salvage: a driver may salvage their kills unless the crew retains possession. the arena will buy salvage at 1/2 value, cash on the barrel head.

This is just a nitpick--

AADA rules are liable to be different by region, but... I would probably make cash prizes be the focus of those duels. Salvage is a thing of road dueling, amateur night, and challenge night... not "pro" dueling. Also, the 30 second rule is pure Amateur Night. AADA rules could range from having a safe zone that you must physically drive into if you want to quit or else simply requiring all duelists to honor surrenders. To discourage unsportsmanlike and gratuitous killing, the duelist's estate should probably keep the car in the event of his death.

06-23-2012, 01:02 PM	#21
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? If course when discussing start characters we should not forget the classic fail condition inherent in the rules. 1) Each character begins with 0 wealth. 2) Each character starts with 0 prestige. 3) A character with no money must sell something or starve. A character with no money and no car is obviously afraid to enter the arena, so his prestige drops to zero and he’s out of the game. By this logic as soon as you generate the character he is out of the game ;( Maybe those characters that volunteer for AM night are desperately running from the accountants who can with the wave of a calculator destroy them. That sounds like an Uncle Schmalbert gadget.

06-23-2012, 01:06 PM	#22
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? Middle class is corporate wage slave, they don't need money at all. John Company looks after them, and makes sure they don't wander off reservation ;).

06-23-2012, 04:29 PM	#23
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? This from GURPS Autoduel (2nd Ed). The AM night winner is awarded; his winning car, plus the 3/4 of the salvage value of the losers. The arena will repair damage to the winning car (using the proceeds from the others, naturally) or buy back the winning car for the same salvage price. This means winner takes all but means he is encouraged to be efficient since he only gets 3/4 of the salvage value (component cost - repair cost). Heavy armour damage will drop this salvage value heavily. 3/4 Salvage value is a better deal than the local garage as you only get 1/2 salvage value there.

06-23-2012, 07:33 PM	#24
ak_aramis Join Date: May 2010 Location: Alsea, OR	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? The problem with GAD is the same as the problem with G:Ogre - it doesn't faithfully attend to the setting, it bends the setting to GURPS. (Same issue with G:VTM and G:Mage.) Unlike the others, it got the feel right despite that. For reference, the Autoduel I've been referring to is the Autoduel Computer Game. Where in, the Arena lets you salvage what you can haul, even during the duel if you're stupid enough to do so, provided you can still drive out. In Deluxe Car Wars, winner is the survivor with the highest prestige. He gets his vehicle, if it still runs, and the salvage value of his kills. Nobody else gets paid. Jeffr0 might have pocket handy, and tell us what the conditions there are; mine's not easily accessed (despite being 6' away).

06-24-2012, 02:07 AM	#25
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? I checked the third edition with the Delux edition and the wording the wording is broadly the same. If you look at the actual wording it is slightly different to how you state it. Winner is survivor with highest prestige (same). A driver (note not the winning driver) who gets out with his car can keep it and salvage his kills. This brings up several interesting points. This allows every particpant to leave with thier car if they are lucky or careful. This point is echoed in Gurps Autoduel and by the 30 second rule in Delux (which isn't in 3rd). So the original intention was that in a new start everyone could have a car from a single AM night event. There isn't any listed benefit for the winner, but since he only needs to not be killed (He doesn't actually need to make any kills) and have the highest prestige (which he could have had before entering) perhaps this is reasonable. The arena is rewarding behaviour here that supports their aim. Survive (so make the combat longer). Kill other cars. As GURPS Autoduel was the first GURPS suppliment it makes sense that it most closely follows the game setting. As CW mutated randomly over time perhaps the changes in GURPS Autoduel are an attempt at making the rules more consistent, rather than make them more consistent with GURPS. I am not sure a computer game produced by another company can be relied on as much as a product from the same company. Last edited by swordtart; 06-24-2012 at 02:13 AM.

06-24-2012, 06:16 AM	#26
Jeffr0 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Harrisonburg VA	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? I wrote this up waaay back before starting our third and longest running campaign with Earlburt. (We did Corporate first for five sessions or so, then a rp campaign for six sessions or so, and then the team amateur night campaign.) Note that the Aaron Allston style was probably first written up in Autoduel Champions... and was repeated in GURPS Autoduel. Aaron was pretty much the Champions game master of his day and he wrote some of the best rpg books of all time. (Strike Force?) Just based on that, I wouldn't want to discount his view of how to launch a CAR WARS campaign. At the same time, you can expect different regions in different eras to have different approaches. __________________ Jeffro's Space Gaming Blog Microgames, Monster Games, and Role Playing Games

06-24-2012, 11:34 AM	#27
swordtart Join Date: Jun 2008	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? A follow on train fothought from the 1st edition and deluxe version. The behaviour rewarded is survival and the sponsorship is from the networks (not the arenas). This moves us away from the bread and circuses model where Amateurs are just cannon fodder (and therefore where cheap recyclable and washable cars are needed). A plausible model is that these AM events are run as an apprenticeship / scouting exercise. AMs that do well (have decent prestige) will get the sponsorship they need. Sponsors for these events will provide decent cars as they don't want their stars of the future getting killed before they can make any money out of them. Sponsors will want to get talent under contract early in their career when their loyalty is cheapest.

06-26-2012, 07:09 PM	#28
ammulder Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Philadelphia Area	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? Well at the end of the day, if the point of this discussion is how to start a campaign with some role-playing elements, doesn't the nature of the players have more of an impact? I mean, if you're trying to get 6 people playing regularly, repeated amateur nights where many of them lose and/or die is probably not the way to go... Sure you're likely to get one or two sponsored, but not very likely a whole group. Unless it really is a team event, or you structure it so death is less likely and even losers get salvage or whatever. I don't really see div 10 with a CA Frame, but why not give all the drivers body armor or component armor at least? Surely there's more drama if the driver actually takes a hit and then the camera follows the nail-biting ride to see if he can make the exit before someone puts another through the breach... And I do prefer a variety of vehicles. Maybe a small chinese menu of weapons/options on the same frame, or at least like we did recently a blow-through concealed weapon that you can choose which facing to mount on (the arena keeps several of each on hand, I suppose...) It doesn't have to be three different weapons on each vehicle, so newbies can focus, but 6 cars with MGs, I dunno. On the skills and prestige, I had fun tracking that in our corporate campaign, but the reality was no individual character went through enough events to actually see much concrete improvement. But maybe this is a subject for another thread.

06-26-2012, 10:31 PM	#29
Angrytubist Join Date: May 2012	Re: So what the heck is Amateur Night anyway? Here's what I'm considering for my next Car Wars "campaign". (I don't care if arena finances make "sense" I just want multiple players to be able to run continuing characters). Character Creation: 30 pt chars, +0 skills cost 5 skill points instead of 10, crew body armor is never counted against division cost. If prestige is used to calculate prize money use the highest rated crew member. AADA Arena Prize Structure Appearance fee (Awarded to all surviving crews) = 1/10 car value + 5x characters prestige: 3 skill points per crew member. 1st place = 100% car value : +3 skill points 2nd place = 50% car value: +2 skill points 3rd place =25% car value : +1 skill points Kill Bonus (mobility or weapons) = 1/10 of kills value + character prestige Duels last 30 sec after which any remaining mobile vehicle may leave. A crew who does not surrender and maintains possession of a "killed" vehicle retains ownership. Salvage: a driver may salvage their kills unless the crew retains possession. the arena will buy salvage at 1/2 value, cash on the barrel head. Amateur Nights: prize money is halved, salvage rules are the same. BLUD Duels Unlimited costs, duels are divided by chassis type, prizes are high, usually over 50K winner-take-all, and kill bonuses per vehicle, and per crew member. BLUD arenas pay full price for salvage. Sponsors : Winning duels and making kills attracts sponsors, here are some "standard" rates. Documented "kill" (video) = 1/10 of kill value + 2x character prestige Ace status = 100% division value + 5x character prestige Double Ace status = 200% division value + 10x character prestige Triple Ace Status+ 300% division value + 15x character prestige 1st place in duel = 75% division value + 3x character prestige 2nd place in duel = 50% division value + 2x character prestige 3rd place in duel = 25% division value + 1x character prestige Surviving duel = 10% division value + 1x character prestige Road duels count as 10k duels for ace status, ace status is tracked separately in all divisions. It seems like even if you lose, you should be able to save up enough for a 5k car in 2 or 3 duels, what do y'all think?