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Old 12-23-2021, 08:03 PM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblining)

This is a pretty gritty thing that you see Goblin Slayer do after he throws his sword into a goblin's head to save Priestess at the start of the Goblin Slayer movie during the TV series recap

(warning quite bloody)
https://youtu.be/SXhXpMWkwdM

I don't think Goblin Slayer steps on the dead goblin's torso for dramatic effect, this guy is a technician, he's like Batman, everything he does has a tactical benefit.

I was thinking of ways you could approximate this necessity in GURPS terms: why did GS step on the torso first to set up the "retrieve my thrown sword from the back of this goblin's skull" objective?

It seems like something more necessary with smaller/lighter foes because they're so light that trying to pull your sword up could result in them staying on the sword and just being carried into the air as you lift.

Whereas with a larger/heavier foe, you could probably just pull up and the foe's own massive weight would probably provide enough resistance that they wouldn't be lifted and would "fall off" the sword more easily than the light goblin would.

-

One of the approaches I thought of in Technical Grappling (where the option exists to leave impaling weapons in foes for Control Points: TG15) is to house-rule it like an automatic necessity to "Break Free" of every single impaling attack by diminishes those "no longer optional" control points to end the 'wound grappling'.

Maybe not "point for point" though, as to make it easier to pull your own sword out of a foe than conversely for them to pull it out of themself? Or that could jsut come down to leverage: you get the ST multiplier of your weapon to dislodge it, your enemies do not.

This would then explain why you'd step on the torso: you're applying your higher leg ST (0.6 x trained ST instead of 0.5 x ST for an arm) to an easier target (-0 to grapple torso instead of -3 to grapple head) and then spending that CP on the torso to reduce the -3 hit location of the skull to "break free" of it w/ the rather-penalized (-2 to hit) "Using Your Legs".

You also notice GS does a little "wiggle" motion of pushing the sword handle forward laterally prior to pulling it up. I think this is sort of "widen the wound so it grips the sword less" so there is decreased resistance for the final pull.

In TG terms that might be something like a rapid strike where the first motion reduces some CP and the final motion puts CP below 0 and frees the sword from the brain/skull.

- -

My basic approach above short of emulating this consideration though:
"you don't need to step on the torso of the big goblin to pull your sword out, adding your own leg/torso mass to the goblin's torso is negligible, the force needed to pull your sword out is not adequate to lift it into the air regardless"
In that sense "gravity helps". You would need to step on a Goblin Champion GIANT to pull your sword out if it were a weightless Goblin Champion or of negligible mass that you could easily lift it (ie killing goblins on the moon or with 0.1 or 0.001 gravity)

Basically it seems like in a way there should be a way to harness mass and positioning to assist in attacking or improving a grapple.

You'd face the opposite problem if a Giant (HEAVY) goblin CHAMPION jumped on top of you (you're on your back) and you stabbed it: to actually "pull" the sword out (note your elbow is already on the ground, there's no space) you'd first have to pick up the giant heavy goblin and lift it up (for example: pressing it up with your leg muscles) to create enough space to pull "back and down".

Although the better strategy would probably be to change position where you topple it off to the side, at which point weight is negligible since gravity is not pulling the corpse toward your sword (if goblin is on top) or away from your sword (if goblin is on bottom)

- - -

What this seems to relate to is TG18's "Understand Relative Size Modifier and Weight Advantage" and TG35's "Establish a Weight Advantage" under "Change Position".

But if taking the approach of "how far my sword is stuck into the skull is like Control Points I need to Break Free of, representing pulling my sword out of the sticky wound" how do we work it so that "the goblin's higher weight is to my benefit in pulling my sword out when I stand above him, so that unlike a tiny light goblin I do not need to stamp down on his torso to prevent lifting him up" ?

It seems like something which could somehow use TG8's Grappling Encumbrance table, except that somehow the weight of your target works in your favor when breaking a wound-grapple instead of how weight normally works against you when influencing grappling rolls.

It also seems like their weight relative to your own ST would not matter (it only takes so much force to overcome the internal pressures of the brain holding your sword inside the body) but instead something like "the weight as compared to the Penetrating Damage" or "weight as compared to the injury" ?

- - -

I was wondering if instead of considering the goblin's Lifting ST that perhaps you could roll add the goblin's maximum HP (as a proxy for mass) to your Lifting ST when calculating thrust for your Break Free subtraction?

This would only apply when you have a 'Weight Advantage' being vertically above them in respect to gravity though. If you're on your side then it shouldn't matter what they weigh.

The converse situation (the dead goblin corpse has a weight advantage on you) would I guess be to subtract the goblin's maximum HP from your Lifting ST when calculating thrust to determine if you can pull your sword out?

That would explain why you wouldn't pull it out while the giant Goblin Champion corpse is on top of you (as a single motion) but rather roll it off you first.

In the case of being underneath a tiny goblin that probably wouldn't be necessary and you could do it in a single motion (they're low HP so it wouldn't interfere much to lift them off your sword)

- - -

TG8's GEM doesn't use "HP as a proxy for mass" like collissions (and sometimes knockback) but instead uses literal weight as compared to basic lift, but I wouldn't know how to use literal poundage as a means of influencing "thrust for control points" relative ST rolls.

It seems like actual weights generally ought to have HP equivalents (though you can buy non-mass HP density which complicates things) except in cases like "fat" or "skinny" disadvantages which mess around with the "ST determines weight" guidelines.

Since I'm saying your BL wouldn't matter in respect to the force needed to dislodge from a wound as compared to the weight (ie the depth of penetration is considered to be the HP lost due to injury and resulting Control Points) that's why it seems easier to go with proxy for weight instead of actual weight as a formulaic mechanic.

Last edited by Plane; 12-23-2021 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 12-24-2021, 04:53 PM   #2
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

Bracing your foot against whatever something is lodged in takes a Ready Maneuver (optionally, a roll against appropriate combat/fast-draw skill allows this to be a free action), and gives a +3 to ST for the purpose of dislodging it (+1 for Taking Extra Time, +2 for using leg ST).

There, done.
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Old 12-24-2021, 06:23 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Bracing your foot against whatever something is lodged in takes a Ready Maneuver (optionally, a roll against appropriate combat/fast-draw skill allows this to be a free action), and gives a +3 to ST for the purpose of dislodging it (+1 for Taking Extra Time, +2 for using leg ST).

There, done.
What are the ST rules for dislodging things though? Kinda glossed over here...

Another interesting thing demonstrated in the film is Priestess uses a reach 1 staff in a in a wide arcing motions to keep monsters at bay.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXku-0icB4k

You can see there are three goblins occupying I guess approximately the three frontal hexes, and they seem to be doing Retreat+Dodge to avoid the clumsy staff swings.

I know with a single attack you can do a Combination to do three attacks at -12 to skill, but I'm not sure if that's what this would encompass or not.

The thing about this motion is if she actually hit the first goblin, the staff would stop there and probably not carry on to threaten the 2nd or 3rd

It's only because 1st dodges that the 2nd and 3rd also need to dodge, basically, since the first target in the path isn't a target anymore.

I'm thinking this actually might be something akin to a "Whirlwind Attack" but in a far more limited form (max 3 foes)

so I would need to modify Kromm's 2007 post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kromm View Post
Whirlwind Attack
  • Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), +4
  • Combat Option: Rapid Strike, five extra attacks (a total of six, for the six hexes around you) is -6◊5 = -30, but halved for this being cinematic and the user being Trained by a Master or a Weapon Master, -15*
  • Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
  • Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
  • Drawback: Can't step, can only turn in place, +1
  • Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
  • Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
  • Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1
Default = 4 - 15 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -5
as follows
  • Maneuver: All-Out Attack (Determined), +4
  • Combat Option: Rapid Strike, two extra attacks (a total of three, for the three hexes in front of you) is -6◊2 = -12, not halved for this being cinemati
  • Drawback: All you can do this turn (no further Rapid Strike, DWA, Fast-Draw, etc.), +1
  • Drawback: Can't combine this with other techniques or special skills, +1
  • Drawback: Can't step, can only turn in place, +1
  • Drawback: Limited to swings at 1 yard in a fixed order against all foes, +1
  • Drawback: Multiple critical misses on any critical miss, +1
  • Drawback: Must accept random hit location, complete with penalty, +1
Default = 4 - 12 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = -2

The +6 in drawbacks and +4 from determined really help...

Although I'm thinking maybe instead of basing it on Determined (no defenses) someone like priestess might opt for a +4 from Telegraphic Attack (she doesn't mind if the goblins dodge) and maybe base it on a Committed Attack at most (-4 to parry with the staff, -2 to dodge counterattacks) instead of All-Out.

Being able to use Telegraphic Attack option might be a violation of 'can't combine with other techniques or special skills' though, not entirely sure. Telegraphic isn't quite a technique or skill , so maybe combat options like Mighty Blows and Telegraphic Attack and similar are still on the table?

Im' also thinking "can't step" might mean you can't do a retreat. I'm not entirely sure since Whirlwind is based on AOA so you can't defend anyway so there's no need to elaborate on that, but it matters if you base it on a different attack maneuver.

It should probably say "cannot change hex" or something though since AOA uses MP (not steps) anyway.

I don't quite understand how "first foe critically succeeds at his dodge so you automatically critically miss your following attacks" works conceptually though, I guess the goblin dodges in a way that causes you to smack yourself with your own staff, and then you smack yourself w/ your staff extra times for the other two goblins?

- -

Im actually thinking another drawback (might be worth -1) of "you can't make your followup clockwise or counterclockwise attack unless the first attack misses or is dodged" representing how they would be cover for each other.

that's not a drawback for the normal Whirlwind Attack where if you do a non-crit miss or it's stopped w/ a non-crit defense, you still get your followup attacks

the only way I'm thinkiing you get the followups on a non-defended hit is if your swinging attack either results in knockback or it goes "all the way through" cutting the goblin in half, sort of the like the Extreme Dismemberment rules for 2 wrists 1 weapon from MA136, and there the 1st goblin would work like cover DR for the 2nd goblin

that better emulatres "one single swing" rather than "a series of three swings as I spin"

Last edited by Plane; 12-24-2021 at 06:26 PM.
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Old 12-24-2021, 07:46 PM   #4
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
What are the ST rules for dislodging things though? Kinda glossed over here...
It would be an application of the rules for Picks (and other sw/imp weapons), from B405. Thr/imp weapons like daggers normally don't get stuck, although they can if they are Barbed (LTC2:14; this isn't given as an option for daggers, however, but rather spears and the like). A campaign based on Goblin Slayer may well use some gritty houserules that result in non-barbed thr/imp weapons getting stuck (particularly on strikes to the Skull and Vitals), dulling or becoming unwieldy due to becoming caked with blood and fat as they are used, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Another interesting thing demonstrated in the film is Priestess uses a reach 1 staff in a in a wide arcing motions to keep monsters at bay.
Something like this isn't really represented well in GURPS, but is a common trope of a character swinging a weapon wildly about and preventing foes from getting too close. I'd say an attack like this would be easy to avoid - particularly with a Retreat - and while it can attack all three Front hexes, this is only if it doesn't connect or get Blocked/Parried, at which point the attack would end. It also makes it a bit more difficult for enemies to close in and get an attack off, which might be able to justify a bonus to Parry. Roughly, using the technique design system from Martial Arts, I could see it built something like the following:

Grants +1 to enemy defense: +2
Special Drawback, Retreating Dodges get a further +1 to defense: +1
Grants +1 to Parry, but only from the Front Hexes: -1
Special Benefit, attacks a second hex if the first is a miss or is Dodged*: -1
Special Benefit, attacks a third hex if the first two are misses and/or Dodged* : -1

Which altogether makes it a +0 combat option. It would probably typically be combined with Defensive Attack, for reduced damage but a further +1 to Parry. It strongly encourages foes to use Retreating Dodge, which helps to keep them at bay.

*I could see a higher penalty called for, here. There are some similarities to Cleaving Strike (DF11:10), which uses Rapid Strike as part of its base. However, this is something typically done by characters with low (or no) combat skill in fiction, so something with steep prerequisites and a high to-hit penalty would be, I feel, rather uncalled for. I could see -2 per Special Benefit (for a net -2) or maybe -3 each (for a net -4, meaning this would typically be done as a Telegraphic Attack), but certainly no higher.
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Old 12-25-2021, 04:41 PM   #5
Plane
 
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Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bamHVR5CoPw

There's also another interesting (albeit sorta spoiler for how GS turns the tables in a major fight in the hour-long special) tactic you see GS use involving sword vs shield.

It made me wonder a lot about GURPS shield mechanics and emulating this maneuver he does.

I think the standard rule is approximately "if your shield's DB makes the difference on any successful active defense then it takes the hit designated for you.

In this case though he's presenting the shield to cover himself (should prob be some penalty to hit his torso from front at least even if he opted to make no active defense at all) and it seems like the Goblin Paladin might actually be so arrogant/stong that it figures "I'll just stab right through your flimsy buckler with my magic sword and kill you".

B379's "Overpenetration and Cover" directs to B400's Overpenetration, and even though it's a subset of "Special Ranged Combat Rules" it seems easy enough to apply this common-sense stuff to melee too..

IE not just "an impaling arrow hit my shield" but "an impaling sword hit my shield" too.

"Ignore the cover and try to shoot right through it!" is in the column to left. You take -2 to hit just like if you were targeting a "half-exposed" bodypart.

I think what happens is either he misses, or because he had to telegraph to avoid missing, it was easy for GS to dodge the attack by making sure he wasn't where the sword's tip would end up once it got through.

- - -

You do see GS get injured but this is actually the blade of the sword slicing through his vambrace into his forearm as the sword angles through the shield... THAT is the part I don't really know how to emulate.

Part of that might be due to him doing a shift of his buckler's positioning as the sword goes through it so that the Goblin Paladin loses the proper positioning needed to easily pull his weapon backward (it's not perpendicular with his hand/wrist anymore)

Can anyone think of how to represent "the impaling weapon's cutting edge slices your forearm after it penetrates your shield and otherwise clears you" ?

I'm trying to remember if there's something in Low-Tech close to it.

I would assume w/ overpenetration if you miss maybe you could have some chance at a random hit location (to hit the arm) but I don't know how to represent the conversion to "but it's the edge doing thrust cutting, not the tip doing thrust impaling" which is what happens to slice through Goblin Slayer's low-budget Vambrace w/ the high-tier sword the super-strong Giant Goblin uses.

- - -

This type of thing might be some sort of "Grapple then Disarm" using weapons, but the quesiton is how to represent the grapple.

I know you can do a grapple w/ a weapon (presumably also w/ a shield) so it might be a Wait+Attack?

That along wouldn't require letting the sword penetrate the shield though: the whole idea of letting that happen is it should give you a huge advantage in grappling that sword compared to trying to use a shield to grapple a sword that isn't stuck in the middle of your buckler.

Which is part of why I'm thinking "the wound grapples your impaler" as a default makes a lot of sense. You could make it very easy to withdraw an impaling weapon when you're in control of the situation (ie stabbing a corpse) but not when a tactician like Goblin Slayer knows all he has to do rotate his impaled buckler before you pull back to throw your withdrawal out of alignment.

In this case the 'wound' is that of the buckler rather than the body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
It would be an application of the rules for Picks (and other sw/imp weapons), from B405. Thr/imp weapons like daggers normally don't get stuck, although they can if they are Barbed (LTC2:14; this isn't given as an option for daggers, however, but rather spears and the like).
I was thinking something like "a basic chance for everything" but then the classic 'stuck' weapons like swing/impale and barbed are much trickier to retrieve.

Like either you muscle them out with pure ST or need a lot of DX finesse to positon yourself right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
A campaign based on Goblin Slayer may well use some gritty houserules that result in non-barbed thr/imp weapons getting stuck (particularly on strikes to the Skull and Vitals), dulling or becoming unwieldy due to becoming caked with blood and fat as they are used, etc.
I don't know a lot about whether the skull gets weapons stuck easier than the torso (or the vitals) but if we based it somehow on the HP lost (as opposed to Penetrating Damage) then the higher wound multipliers would probably cover it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Something like this isn't really represented well in GURPS, but is a common trope of a character swinging a weapon wildly about and preventing foes from getting too close. I'd say an attack like this would be easy to avoid - particularly with a Retreat - and while it can attack all three Front hexes, this is only if it doesn't connect or get Blocked/Parried, at which point the attack would end.

It also makes it a bit more difficult for enemies to close in and get an attack off, which might be able to justify a bonus to Parry.
I think something along the lines of "my weapon is occupying the hex in front of me, to enter that occupied hex you need to evade (MA71) the weapon even if I don't attack you" might cover it?

The issue though is of course it can't occupy all three front hexes at once, so there would be timing gaps a goblin could slip through if they were quick enough.

MA106 has what I think could be a baseline to this: Obstruction lets you (if you're willing to use up one of your parries) substitue your weapon skill for DX in a Quick Contest for Evade.

It's supposed to be "evade you from the front" but since when you grapple a weapon it's sort of an extension of you, I think it might be believable to apply this not just when "he's in my hex trying to get behind me" but also "he's in my weapon's hex trying to get behind the tip of my weapon".

That's one alternative way I could see representing it for someone who maybe doesn't have a fancy rapid-strike combination attack.

It would also give more flexibility to react to people who quickly enter into range (ie Move and Attack) since the only way to pre-emptively do Rapid Strike to pressure a Retreat would be a Wait+Attack, which you could not engage in if you were already using Attack to fend off goblins which were already in range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Roughly, using the technique design system from Martial Arts, I could see it built something like the following:

Grants +1 to enemy defense: +2
You wouldn't want to make it too easy or they wouldn't bother retreating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Special Drawback, Retreating Dodges get a further +1 to defense: +1
I like this part, although I don't know if we have precedent on how much of a benefit +1 should give. Maybe that should give them +2 or more, even?

This also raises the question: does it become obvious to your foes that their retreats would get the bonus?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Grants +1 to Parry, but only from the Front Hexes: -1
It's hard to imagine being more prepped to parry while you're wildly doing a bunch of attacks. I got more of a "committed attack" sense of "my weapon is the last thing I should be defending with" the way the staff is thrown about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Special Benefit, attacks a second hex if the first is a miss or is Dodged*: -1
Special Benefit, attacks a third hex if the first two are misses and/or Dodged* : -1
I like these but I don't know how balanced something like this would be, this is way less expensive than -12 to all three attacks for a Rapid Strike combination.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
this is something typically done by characters with low (or no) combat skill in fiction, so something with steep prerequisites and a high to-hit penalty would be, I feel, rather uncalled for. I could see -2 per Special Benefit (for a net -2) or maybe -3 each (for a net -4, meaning this would typically be done as a Telegraphic Attack), but certainly no higher.
Part of the question here is "when designing combinations, what is the basic penalty we should charge for being able to do a combination you've put no points into.

Like normally there's a perk to unlock special combinations...

If we allow "design combinations on the fly" you could always tailor-make them for a situation to optimize benefits/drawbacks so a large basic penalty would balance that out a bit, make it more workable if you're actually buying up the technique.
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Old 12-25-2021, 08:02 PM   #6
Varyon
 
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Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
There's also another interesting (albeit sorta spoiler for how GS turns the tables in a major fight in the hour-long special) tactic you see GS use involving sword vs shield.
Yeah, I really liked the way he handled the mithril* sword when I read it in the manga. So, there's a sword with an edge that can cut through anything? Let it stab into your shield, then twist it so it gets stuck - done.

For doing this in GURPS, I'd probably call it a Stop Hit (MA108) that is either used to Disarm directly (if not using Technical Grappling) or used to initiate a grapple on the target's weapon to setup a later disarm (if using Technical Grappling). In either case, you'd be using Shield skill. The GM may well give a further bonus, provided the character both wins and succeeds at the subsequent Block, due to the cleverness of the setup - negating the penalty to Disarm makes sense in the first case, and in the second the GM may allow the character to use (some of) the Control Points generated by the weapon getting stuck in the shield (a stuck impaling weapon generates Control equal to its basic damage).

As for using the shield for cover, consider this suggestion by Kromm. You can read the main thread for a more complicated look at things, but I think Kromm's post nails things down fairly well, here.

*The translation I read called it an aluminum sword. I suspect this is based on the theory Tolkien actually based mithril off of aluminum - it certainly wouldn't be the first direct reference to his works in the story (note the man who trained Goblin Slayer was a Rhea - a halfling - who made heavy use of riddles for training - indeed, some of the very same ones we saw used in Bilbo and Gollum's riddle "duel" IIRC - including a final riddle of "What's in my pocket" - the accidental riddle that won the game for Bilbo - and was named Burglar - Bilbo's role in Thorin's party).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You do see GS get injured but this is actually the blade of the sword slicing through his vambrace into his forearm as the sword angles through the shield... THAT is the part I don't really know how to emulate.
I'd probably just let this be a case of Artistic License, as the wound didn't actually affect GS in any meaningful way. I suppose if his Block had MoS 0, the GM could rule things as a "graze" of sorts, perhaps applying Tip Slash damage to the character's arm. This - and indeed the whole maneuver - is something that should probably be done on a case-by-case basis rather than "let's come up with a whole sequence of rules to handle edge cases like this one."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I don't know a lot about whether the skull gets weapons stuck easier than the torso (or the vitals) but if we based it somehow on the HP lost (as opposed to Penetrating Damage) then the higher wound multipliers would probably cover it.
I was thinking such a houserule might have it be that anything that goes through rigid DR (such as that on the Skull) risks getting stuck. Applying this to Vitals, despite the lack of DR there, would be on account of the ribs. I'd say basic damage would be more what you'd use if you have a damage-based chance of getting stuck, not Injury (you probably aren't much less likely to get a blade stuck in the Skull of a skeleton with IT:Unliving and IT:No Brain than in the skull of a living person, after all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
MA106 has what I think could be a baseline to this: Obstruction lets you (if you're willing to use up one of your parries) substitue your weapon skill for DX in a Quick Contest for Evade.
Hmmm... there might be something workable there. Say that, with a Reach 1+ weapon, you can normally dictate a specific front hex (or specific line of hexes, for Reach 2+ weapons) your weapon covers, and the foe has to successfully Evade against you to get past (although a foe who manages to Evade there is treated as having Evaded you in general); if the foe fails to Evade, they get struck (and stopped, if thrusting). You can trade in the automatic hit to instead affect all front hexes within your weapon's Reach, but in this case if the foe fails to Evade he/she can opt to abort the attempt (which may mean not moving forward or moving forward and then jumping back).

Successfully holding back multiple foes should be at some sort of penalty, however - I'd be tempted to say the first foe is at +0, the second at -4, and the last at -8 (this matches the +0, -2, -4 for Parrying with a two-handed weapon). That probably makes it too difficult for Priestess to hold off three goblins, however, as her Staff skill is unlikely to be terribly high (assuming she's comparable to a Novice Smart Delver from Delvers to Grow, she'd likely only have Staff-11 or so, perhaps 12 or 13 due to her having accrued some experience).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
You wouldn't want to make it too easy or they wouldn't bother retreating.
I was thinking more that her attacks (indeed, the attacks of any character in such a situation in pretty much all media I've seen) look really easy to avoid, but that may just be her using Telegraphic Attack on account of her low skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I like this part, although I don't know if we have precedent on how much of a benefit +1 should give. Maybe that should give them +2 or more, even?
+1 to all enemy defenses is +2 to skill in the design system. +1 to only Retreating defenses cannot give you any better than +1, and justification could be given to go lower - perhaps you need +2 to Retreats to get a +1 to skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
This also raises the question: does it become obvious to your foes that their retreats would get the bonus?
At a meta-level, yes. If a foe uses a Deceptive Attack, you should know what penalty you're dealing with, and if a foe uses Telegraphic Attack, you should know you have a +2 to defend. If the player (or GM in control of the NPC) choses not to capitalize on the bonus, you could say the character didn't realize Retreating would be extra-effective against this attack - or the character did know this, but opted not to Retreat for any number of reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
It's hard to imagine being more prepped to parry while you're wildly doing a bunch of attacks. I got more of a "committed attack" sense of "my weapon is the last thing I should be defending with" the way the staff is thrown about.
My thought there was that it would be harder than normal to get an attack past the sweeping staff, and the character would already be well-positioned to Parry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
Part of the question here is "when designing combinations, what is the basic penalty we should charge for being able to do a combination you've put no points into.
My suggestion was to make this a generally-available option, not a special, unique Technique. If you make a Technique into something that anyone can do at default, there's no need for a further penalty, because there's no Perk needed to do it in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
If we allow "design combinations on the fly" you could always tailor-make them for a situation to optimize benefits/drawbacks so a large basic penalty would balance that out a bit, make it more workable if you're actually buying up the technique.
I'd at least require a [5] Advantage to unlock the ability to design Techniques on the fly (although in some campaigns existing Advantages, like Trained by a Master or Weapon Master, could work without a price increase), and apply a -1 to any Hard Technique. Combinations don't need to be designed on the fly (with the exception of those that use two weapons to attack more than once, but I'd give those a pass), because Combinations are just Rapid Strikes that you can buy off the penalty for. Using such at default is... just doing a Rapid Strike.
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Old 12-26-2021, 05:42 PM   #7
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Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Yeah, I really liked the way he handled the mithril* sword when I read it in the manga. So, there's a sword with an edge that can cut through anything? Let it stab into your shield, then twist it so it gets stuck - done.

For doing this in GURPS, I'd probably call it a Stop Hit (MA108) that is either used to Disarm directly (if not using Technical Grappling) or used to initiate a grapple on the target's weapon to setup a later disarm (if using Technical Grappling).
I'd say definitely the latter (TG) due to the dramatic delay, it wasn't an attack on the sword that instantaneously flung it away, you can see it struggle to regain control and seems like it actually let go voluntarily because it was the only way to retreat from GS' attack.

Until you let go of your weapon any CP applied to the weapon apply to your hand, which means half that CP apply to the rest of your body, and also prevent retreats.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The GM may well give a further bonus, provided the character both wins and succeeds at the subsequent Block, due to the cleverness of the setup - negating the penalty to Disarm makes sense in the first case, and in the second the GM may allow the character to use (some of) the Control Points generated by the weapon getting stuck in the shield (a stuck impaling weapon generates Control equal to its basic damage).
I don't know that the shield-user would be able to actually use the CP, nor if I applied involuntarily CP against a spear-user whose spear was stuck in someone's torso, to allow the torso's owner to spend that CP either.

To spend the CP is to lose them which would mean you could somehow extricate the spear while getting an advantage.

I don't think GS could so easily get the spear out of that shield (you actually just see him keep carrying the shield around until later, w/ the sword still stuck in it)

So it's more like "nobody owns the control points so nobody can spend them" so anyone who wants to lower them has to attack them.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As for using the shield for cover, consider this suggestion by Kromm. You can read the main thread for a more complicated look at things, but I think Kromm's post nails things down fairly well, here.
That's a pretty cool one I'll add it to my collection of shield possibilities.

One amendment I'd make to phrasing where it says "the usual effects of cover: an extra -2 to be hit" ... that's actually the effect of PARTIAL cover.

Normal cover (complete cover) is AFAIK not possible to get around.

I think it's fine if shields provide that so long as you make it "direction". IE if a buckler in front of the chest gives "complete cover to the chest from the centre-front hex, you make it partial cover (-2) if someone is attacking the chest from the front-left or front-right hexes.

If you go two facing shifts away from where the shield is oriented, then it probably shouldn't help at all, like for example if I hold a buckler in front of my face (complete cover from front-centre, -2 to hit my forehead from front-left or front-right) then there should be no penalty to hit the skull from the left-rear ("left"), right-rear ("right") or centre-rear ("rear") hexes.

You could of course hold your shield to protect the back of your skull (I think Atlas does that while fighting in Troy? Or maybe to protect his upper back?) but then conversely it shouldn't help w/ protecting your face.

This would lead to poeple moving their "cover location" (not just body part, but location-respective part) during battle, and motivate opponents to circle a shield-user to attack from angles of partial cover.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
*The translation I read called it an aluminum sword. I suspect this is based on the theory Tolkien actually based mithril off of aluminum - it certainly wouldn't be the first direct reference to his works in the story (note the man who trained Goblin Slayer was a Rhea - a halfling - who made heavy use of riddles for training - indeed, some of the very same ones we saw used in Bilbo and Gollum's riddle "duel" IIRC - including a final riddle of "What's in my pocket" - the accidental riddle that won the game for Bilbo - and was named Burglar - Bilbo's role in Thorin's party).
I never knew that about mithril, pretty subtle

I didn't know the sword could cut/impale anything either, maybe that's just mentioned in the manga? The film just seems to act like it's a superior metal that the goblins wanted because their metals were so shoddy. It probably does have limitations though I think it's better than even average human metals or else Goblin Slayer just tends to buy the cheapest stuff since he loses weapons all the time.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd probably just let this be a case of Artistic License, as the wound didn't actually affect GS in any meaningful way.
It could have if it were poisoned, which goblins do a LOT with their blades. I think GS got lucky in this case because that's more your common goblin tactic while the Goblin Paladin is probably so arrogant he doesn't bother w/ poisoning.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I suppose if his Block had MoS 0, the GM could rule things as a "graze" of sorts, perhaps applying Tip Slash damage to the character's arm.
LT114 has some alternate rules for Improvised Shields regarding "when you make the roll by the DB" situations

Instead of it always being "the shield is hit for damage" if you need to rim-grasp an improvised shield lacking a handle there's a 1 in 6 chance of "hand is hit instead of the shield"

I'm pretty sure you're only allowed to use the Buckler skill in this case too because that's the only shield held by the hand, using a book or frying ban ala "I have soemthing strapped to my foreamr" doesn't make much sense.

It says this requires 2 hands which doesn't cover the situation of "I hold up the DB1 heavy book 1-handed to block the arrow" but I'm thinking maybe it could be fine to house rule via the One Hand disadvantage to allow that at -2 to DX (-1 to block)

- -

Now in the case of MoS 0, you definitely made your roll by the DB (just barely) but this is still meant to hit only the shield in case of your standard "has a handle" shield.

Even in the case of rim-grasping a no-handle buckler (ie heavy book, chair or table) the odds of a hand getting hit are pretty low (1 in 6)

T-bone's Ten Tweaks (pyramid 3/34 pg 28) "grazes" already has this type of thing happen in "failure by 1" on defense rolls, so that seems like enough.

Failing to block usually means that the attack will strike it's originally intended target. IE it gets there before the shield gets in the way.

What I think we're looking at is any success up to DB (that's one thing which never happens using the effective DB 0 made possibly by T-bone's "Shields and Size" which could use some reworking) or some other situation which causes the shield to be hit (an intentional attack through complete cover for example) might still allow the forearm to be hit prior to the original target (for example: an opponent trying to stab through a shield to hit the skull)

This would make a lot more sense with a traditional "strapped to forearm shield" (ie if it penetrates your shield, if it hits dead-center it's also have to penetrate your forearm to get to your skull) than with bucklers.

For some reason I thought GS was using a buckler but rewatching the vid clip it's indeed strapped to his forearm.

I'm thinking one way to resolve this (since it is possible to penetrate the outside of a large shield with nothing behind it and avoid the forearm) might be to use something like "attacking into a close combat" rules to see if you randomly hit the forearm behind the shield or not.

In the case of GS, that secondary roll to hit could be considered a "success by zero" graze.

I hadn't remembered it until now but T-bone has this rule for grazes which I think reflects it:
Change piercing or impaling damage to cutting (similar to the Tip Slash from GURPS Martial Arts, p. 113).
The only thing I think needs consideration here is this treats "graze from an impaling sword with no cutting edge" identically to "graze from a sword with a cutting edge" which feels quite off: grazes from cutting swords should probably hurt more.

One compromised I can see here: the "halve basic damage" of a T-bone graze from an impaling attack might be ignored in the case of graze from impaling w/ a cutting edge. That gives impale+cutting weapons an advantage in grazes.

- -

"Paladin strikes through the shield, hits the forearm but misses the skull" could basically be that you made the roll to hit the cover but the -2 to hit stuff through cover resulted in a miss... or just that GS managed to dodge, since he didn't actually need to expend "Block" as his active defense at all (having already positioned the shield to provide cover)

As far as "hits the forearm" I'm thinking basically that you should roll "attacking into a close combat" to hit a forearm after detemrining if you hit that shield (and overpenetrated it) but before seeing if it hits the skull.

If it misses the forearm, you calculate going after the skull as usual.

If it hits however then I would imagien you'd allow that to add to the cover DR of damage applied to the skull.

Grazes however might be another story since you don't actually have to impale the entire forearm (only cut alongside it)
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Old 12-26-2021, 05:42 PM   #8
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Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
This - and indeed the whole maneuver - is something that should probably be done on a case-by-case basis rather than "let's come up with a whole sequence of rules to handle edge cases like this one."
Kek, "edge" cases.
Yeah I guess when you see interesting stuff animated there's often more than one way to interpret what's going on, usually I just look for "how can I explain what contacts what"

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I was thinking such a houserule might have it be that anything that goes through rigid DR (such as that on the Skull) risks getting stuck. Applying this to Vitals, despite the lack of DR there, would be on account of the ribs.
Ribs are one of those cases where I thought about maybe allowing people to target vitals at a lower penalty if you attack "through the ribs" but need to penetrate "rib DR".

If we assume the -2 of "partial cover" is built into the -3, then to attack "through cover DR of 2 for bone" at vitals would only be -1 to hit though?

There could also be exceptions like narrow edge weapons (ie a knife, not a thick spearhead or lance) where one strikes "between the ribs" to ignore DR, but that's about as tricky as "from underneath the ribs" (the usualy means I'd assume you ignore DR by to hit things in the chest cavity) so the usual -3 sounds right

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd say basic damage would be more what you'd use if you have a damage-based chance of getting stuck, not Injury (you probably aren't much less likely to get a blade stuck in the Skull of a skeleton with IT:Unliving and IT:No Brain than in the skull of a living person, after all).
It might depend on "is the DR a thing" I guess, like if you have DR from a forcefield it's not likely to stuff stuck in it (or maybe it is but you can turn it off to get it loose?)

I guess with worn DR like a helmet you could have stuff like "my brains/skull/helmet are in concert stuck on this weapon" though with "it's only stuck in my helmet" situations (doesn't penetrate the DR but gets stuck in the DR that stopped it) you might just remove the helmet to get the weapon off you, as an alternative to detaching the weapon from the helmet.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Hmmm... there might be something workable there. Say that, with a Reach 1+ weapon, you can normally dictate a specific front hex (or specific line of hexes, for Reach 2+ weapons) your weapon covers, and the foe has to successfully Evade against you to get past (although a foe who manages to Evade there is treated as having Evaded you in general);
I was thinking something like "one evade context per hex traveled" IE if you evade the tip of the lance you might still run into the non-pointy side of it in subsequent hexes

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
if the foe fails to Evade, they get struck (and stopped, if thrusting).
The question as to whether "failed evade means contact" is one that came up in a mock combat I did a couple years ago w/ Eric the Red. I think that's the basic rule (and we were debating whether it means collision damage, since in this case we were both unarmed)

One idea I recall coming up was something like "treat it like a successful attack on both, but give both a chance to dodge"

IE if you're trying to evade someone but can't do it, instead of being forced to collide with them, if you can't get past them you have the option to try and back off (dodge) so you don't collide.

I guess if that's allowed you might also allow a parry, in which case you do have contact but don't need to worry about collision damage.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
You can trade in the automatic hit to instead affect all front hexes within your weapon's Reach, but in this case if the foe fails to Evade he/she can opt to abort the attempt (which may mean not moving forward or moving forward and then jumping back).
That'd work if not using my idea to allow abort-attempts on failed contests...

Another might just be something like rapid strike : you can "obstruct" multiple hexes within your weapon's reach, but you're -6 to weapon skill to resist Evade in the Quick Contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Successfully holding back multiple foes should be at some sort of penalty, however - I'd be tempted to say the first foe is at +0, the second at -4, and the last at -8 (this matches the +0, -2, -4 for Parrying with a two-handed weapon).
Yeah, or the -4 for Dual Weapon Attack, that'd work too.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
That probably makes it too difficult for Priestess to hold off three goblins, however, as her Staff skill is unlikely to be terribly high (assuming she's comparable to a Novice Smart Delver from Delvers to Grow, she'd likely only have Staff-11 or so, perhaps 12 or 13 due to her having accrued some experience).
she might be using All-Out Defense : Determined Parry, in which case a +2 to parries could work like a +4 to Staff to counter Evade in the Quick Contest

That should probably work in reverse too: if you're using a Committed Attack w/ your staff that -4 to parry with your staff would probably be an effective -8 to skill to resist Evade in the Quick Contest.

Though I could see grounds to ignore it in that case since you could be assumed to already have your weapon aimed at whoever you just committed-attacked.

In the case of All-Out Attack: Determined (+4 to staff to hit) that makes me wonder if you can still get an automatic "my staff is in the way" defense for people you just attacked to try and evade past your attacking weapon.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I was thinking more that her attacks (indeed, the attacks of any character in such a situation in pretty much all media I've seen) look really easy to avoid, but that may just be her using Telegraphic Attack on account of her low skill.
Yeah I don't think she was really focused on "strike so quickly the goblin can't avoid me" kind of Deceptive Attack in that situation. She probably is content with "the goblins are just concerned enough about my low ST that they will dodge and back away from me, and delay in killing me long enough that GS gets up behind them".

That ultimately doesn't work since one goblin (due to the +2 to defend) manages to score a Grabbing Parry, resulting in her wasting one of her precious daily (D&D style limit) spells on a mere Blinding Flash to get it to back off.

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
+1 to all enemy defenses is +2 to skill in the design system. +1 to only Retreating defenses cannot give you any better than +1, and justification could be given to go lower - perhaps you need +2 to Retreats to get a +1 to skill.

At a meta-level, yes. If a foe uses a Deceptive Attack, you should know what penalty you're dealing with, and if a foe uses Telegraphic Attack, you should know you have a +2 to defend.
I guess one issue with this is if I'm a sword-master doing a -20 to skill "-10 to defend" deceptive attack, if people understand what I'm doing automatically they'll just opt not to waste their defense against me and take the hit.

Maybe a compromise might be to make some kind of perception check modified by the defense modifier? IE you can Vision+2 to perceive it's a Telegraphic Attack, or Vision-10 to perceive it's a deceptive attack?

At some extreme level of deceptive attack representing super-speed it makes me wonder if you'd actually perceive the attack coming at all though. A fast enough (deceptive enough attack) should eventually becoming invisible/surprise if you think about it, using 'deception is speed' interpretation of Deceptive Attack.

Pyramid 57's "dodge this" had something along those lines:
"if a Perception roll with this modifier would require a critical success (4 or less), assume you canít see the projectile"
To emulate a thrown knife or baseball (-6 modifier) via Deceptive Attack, since you can't reduce effective skill below 10, requires skill 16.

To get "my deceptive attack thrust with my sword is as fast as a bullet" (emulating a -14 to hit on the speed/range table) would require an effective skill of 24, while light-speed (-50 speed multiplier) would require a combat skill of 60 to do a deceptive attack that fast.
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Old 12-26-2021, 05:43 PM   #9
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Default Re: grappling torso w/ foot to dislodge impaling weapon from skull (Technical Goblini

(part 3 of 3, sorry had to split due to char limit)

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
If the player (or GM in control of the NPC) choses not to capitalize on the bonus, you could say the character didn't realize Retreating would be extra-effective against this attack - or the character did know this, but opted not to Retreat for any number of reasons.
A bit handwavey. It's fine if there are tactical reasons for that (ie they remember there is a wall/ally behind them and a retreat would cause a collision) but whether they realize it ought to depend on Per/IQ.

Maybe instead of raw per or IQ you could do a weapon/combat roll based on those instead of DX? Success meaning "I realize a retreat would give an extra bonus".

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
My thought there was that it would be harder than normal to get an attack past the sweeping staff, and the character would already be well-positioned to Parry.
I think I get what you mean (links back to my prior mention of Committed Attack).

So I'm thinking that both All-Out Defense: Determined parry (+2 to parry = +4 to skill) and also Committed Attack (+2 to skill) should give bonuses in using your weapon to Obstruct to resist Evade in the Quick Contest

You're not supposed to be able to parry at all with a weapon you used for a Committed Attack though. MA100 is more extreme than I remembered, for some reason I thought it was -4 instead of -2 to defend, but it's actually "cannot parry with the hand(s) he used to attack" so I was remembering it wrong.

Obstructing Evade is technically different from a parry (even though it uses up a parry) so I could see that being different, possibly. If it were allowed it should probably only work against that singular foe you attacked.

TG22's "One Foe" might also have some kind of application here:

You may combine One Foe with All-Out Attack.
If so, you still lose your active defenses,
but you may make resistance rolls in Quick Contests against that foe at -4
(instead of an automatic failure)
Besides AOA, Committed Attack is also a situation of "you lose your active defenses" but in a limited sense (you only lose Parry, and only with the attacking arm).

It sounds like with AOA you normally could not stop Evade with your DX but One Foe allows it.

"Use up a parry to do a non-parrying action to substitute Skill for DX" is basically what we're talking about here...

In this case if it were allowed you'd be losing something you have no use for anyway (number of parries per turn with that weapon) so it seems like an exploit...

Maybe subbing the Weapon Skill for DX shouldn't cost a parry except when you need to relocate the weapon to a different hex to do so? That would still allow it to be done by people using AOA or Committed, but only if using the weapon to Obstruct the Evade of a foe traveling from the hex you just attacked. You'd still be out of luck trying to Obstruct the Evade of attackers coming in from other hexes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
My suggestion was to make this a generally-available option,
not a special, unique Technique.
If you make a Technique into something that anyone can do at default,
there's no need for a further penalty,
because there's no Perk needed to do it in the first place.
I guess my only concern is the more "general options" we introduce for free, the less incentive we have for people to buy Special Technique perks to design custom non-universal techniques, since the default options already cover a wider spanse of ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
I'd at least require a [5] Advantage to unlock the ability to design Techniques on the fly (although in some campaigns existing Advantages, like Trained by a Master or Weapon Master, could work without a price increase), and apply a -1 to any Hard Technique.
Sounds like something we could cover under Modular Abilities. But since they need to spend time rearranging points, they couldn't instantly call upon different techniques.

Even w/ enough Reduced Time to change Modular Abilities down to "free action" that's still something you can only swap once per turn (multiple point rearrangemnts per turn might need something like Rapid Fire using Warp as precedent) and only at the start of turn, unless you allow something like 'Power Dodge' to use 'free action' ability during opponent's turn in reaction to them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Combinations don't need to be designed on the fly (with the exception of those that use two weapons to attack more than once, but I'd give those a pass), because Combinations are just Rapid Strikes that you can buy off the penalty for. Using such at default is... just doing a Rapid Strike.
checking MA80 you're right except where it allows a 3-attack rapid strike if you spend a point on the combination (normal non-combination rapid-strikes are limited to 2 attacks)

Two-attack combinations seem pretty unattractive to me. You have a huge drawback on that 2nd attack (+3 to defend if 1st is defended against) plus an overall defensive problem (+1 to defend against if you keep using it) and combos are "Hard" techniques, you need TWO character points to buy off that first -1 to hit.

Even at the most expensive, improving your overall weapon skills is 4/level so you'd be paying half that and getting all those bonuses to attacker defenses plus limited target selection, it's just not a good deal.

In the very least I think combinations ought to be average techniques so it's a fixed 1pt per -1 you buy off. Even then it's hard to think of them as a good deal.
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