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Old 10-11-2016, 02:36 PM   #31
Ulzgoroth
 
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Hmm. Checking the information on hard-hat diving suits (of leather or airtight cloth, despite a hard helmet), reportedly they can be used down to a depth of 180 metres, which is 18.8 atmospheres, which in GURPSese would indicate slightly above Pressure Support 1 (which grants ability to function at 10 atmospheres).
Again, it doesn't protect you against pressure.

From Pyramid #3/26: "The current record for an ambient-pressure dive is 1,752 feet of sea water, though the equivalent of 2,300 feet was achieved in a hyperbaric chamber." 180m is dangerous, especially without a sophisticated understanding of gas mixes and decompression, but it's very much possible.
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Old 10-11-2016, 02:46 PM   #32
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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Again, it doesn't protect you against pressure.

From Pyramid #3/26: "The current record for an ambient-pressure dive is 1,752 feet of sea water, though the equivalent of 2,300 feet was achieved in a hyperbaric chamber." 180m is dangerous, especially without a sophisticated understanding of gas mixes and decompression, but it's very much possible.
The point about 180m is that it's past crush depth, unless one enjoys Pressure Support.
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Old 10-11-2016, 02:54 PM   #33
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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The point about 180m is that it's past crush depth, unless one enjoys Pressure Support.
And my point is that crush depth in basic is quite simply nonsense. Humans are at no risk of being crushed by those depths, whether they survive them or not. (Maybe there would be some risk if the pressure came on suddenly, and certainly a jet of water or piece of collapsing submarine driven by that pressure could be damaging. But a dive won't be in that crude sense.)
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:29 PM   #34
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

Crush depth / Pressure Support is not about super careful slow descents by prepared individuals for a minute.
Quite a few people have climbed Mt. Everest, but that does NOT mean human norms should allow rapid ascent to over 20k feet.
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Old 10-11-2016, 06:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

The text in Basic asserts in no uncertain terms that it's damage from you being crushed by the pressure, and it's simply based on you being present at that level of environmental pressure. There is no suggestion that it has anything to do with rapid transitions, and it's a pretty gradual process.

You don't need a particularly gradual pressure step-up or a short duration to avoid risk of being crushed, though. You need it to be 'gradual' in the sense of not smashing you with fast-moving objects, that's all.
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Old 10-11-2016, 08:54 PM   #36
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

Like I mentioned before, if you want more realistic, but still kind of RAW Gurps pressure rules for biologicals, 3rd ed. Blue Planet has them.
Basic only covers most likely events for humanoids, and PCs are going to be suddenly thrust into such environments not gradually walk into it. If they had resources to prepare with, then they would be completely protected TL/Magic allowing.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:17 PM   #37
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

Crush depth for submersibles is real, and doesn't have anything to do with rate of descent.
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Old 10-11-2016, 09:18 PM   #38
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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Like I mentioned before, if you want more realistic, but still kind of RAW Gurps pressure rules for biologicals, 3rd ed. Blue Planet has them.
Basic only covers most likely events for humanoids, and PCs are going to be suddenly thrust into such environments not gradually walk into it. If they had resources to prepare with, then they would be completely protected TL/Magic allowing.
...Why on earth would you think that the most likely way for PCs to encounter 10+ atmospheres is suddenly being dumped into them? If that's the assumption, you'd hardly need pressure rules to kill them off anyway, since the 10+ atmosphere environment they've suddenly been tossed into unprepared is likely to also be some combination of unbreathable, corrosive, and either cryogenic or dangerously hot.

Even if that bizarre proposition were true, it would still do nothing to justify a rule about how they get slowly crushed to death over the course of several minutes.
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:49 AM   #39
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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Crush depth for submersibles is real, and doesn't have anything to do with rate of descent.
However, "crush depth" is not mentioned in the Basic Set. Neither in the rules for Pressure Support or the Pressure section on p.435. Somebody's errant memory must have inserted that term.

Pressure support would appear to have two effects. First is reduced effect (or even immunity at a high level) tot he bends. The second deals with the possibility of being crushed at over 10x your native pressure.

The mechanism involved is absolutely not specified. So you can stop arguing over submarine hulls.

"Crush depth" was discussed multiple times in 3e including Ve2, Gurps Traveller, G:Atlantis, TS: Under Pressure and G:Blue Planet. The improved rules originated in Atlantis and migrated to later books. Under Pressure might have the most detailed treatment of biological effects. In no case as "crush depth" a stat for living beings.
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Old 10-12-2016, 07:51 AM   #40
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Default Re: Cybersuit -- Submersible or Not?

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However, "crush depth" is not mentioned in the Basic Set. Neither in the rules for Pressure Support or the Pressure section on p.435. Somebody's errant memory must have inserted that term.

Pressure support would appear to have two effects. First is reduced effect (or even immunity at a high level) tot he bends. The second deals with the possibility of being crushed at over 10x your native pressure.

The mechanism involved is absolutely not specified. So you can stop arguing over submarine hulls.

"Crush depth" was discussed multiple times in 3e including Ve2, Gurps Traveller, G:Atlantis, TS: Under Pressure and G:Blue Planet. The improved rules originated in Atlantis and migrated to later books. Under Pressure might have the most detailed treatment of biological effects. In no case as "crush depth" a stat for living beings.
I used 'crush depth' as a shorthand for 'depth at which you begin taking damage from being crushed by the pressure'. I thought it's an obvious way to avoid a long sentence.
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