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Old 11-23-2021, 06:59 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Blade Runner: Black Lotus and Technical Grappling

So I was watching the newest ep of Black Lotus that debuted Saturday and it has this neat fight scene where the female police officer beats up a bunch of gang members.

This one move she did got me thinking about how GURPS would treat it. Any ideas?

https://youtu.be/wBaQ9CR3XP0

It's like the guy was aiming a kick for her but she grabs his buddy and interposes him so that by the time the kick lands it hits the buddy instead.
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Old 11-23-2021, 07:07 AM   #2
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: Blade Runner: Black Lotus and Technical Grappling

Really, that's just the kicking guy not being a good fighter - his buddy is already in his way when he starts the kick, and she's far enough away it wouldn't have hit her anyway (but that may just be bad fight choreography). As for what they were going for, I think it's possible with Technical Grappling to Parry an attack using the opponent you're grappling, so this could be a case of that, with her opting to burn up all her Control Points on the attempt and breaking the grapple. If it's not possible, well, honestly it should be, although this is going to be more difficult than a normal Parry (then again, if your hands are full of struggling criminal, it may be your best option).
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Old 11-23-2021, 07:11 AM   #3
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Blade Runner: Black Lotus and Technical Grappling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
So I was watching the newest ep of Black Lotus that debuted Saturday and it has this neat fight scene where the female police officer beats up a bunch of gang members.

This one move she did got me thinking about how GURPS would treat it. Any ideas?

https://youtu.be/wBaQ9CR3XP0

It's like the guy was aiming a kick for her but she grabs his buddy and interposes him so that by the time the kick lands it hits the buddy instead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Really, that's just the kicking guy not being a good fighter - his buddy is already in his way when he starts the kick, and she's far enough away it wouldn't have hit her anyway (but that may just be bad fight choreography). As for what they were going for, I think it's possible with Technical Grappling to Parry an attack using the opponent you're grappling, so this could be a case of that, with her opting to burn up all her Control Points on the attempt and breaking the grapple. If it's not possible, well, honestly it should be, although this is going to be more difficult than a normal Parry (then again, if your hands are full of struggling criminal, it may be your best option).
This is covered explicitly in Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, on p. 8, under the title "Human Shield."
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Old 11-26-2021, 11:44 AM   #4
Plane
 
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Default Re: Blade Runner: Black Lotus and Technical Grappling

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Really, that's just the kicking guy not being a good fighter - his buddy is already in his way when he starts the kick
I think it depends on when you count the kick as starting, like whether it's when you begin to lift the kicking leg off the ground, vs actually thrusting it forward.

To make it easier to talk about specific points I'll slow it to 1/10 speed so it's a 25 second video...

https://youtu.be/RsP0Xs6H41M

You can see at 2/25 is when he lifts his left leg in preparation for the first kick.

Where he ends up kicking the air doesn't seem like it would've hit where she'd been standing, but it might've if she walked into it, so it's like he wrongly predicted she would lean forward, at which point she probably would've gotten caught by it.

At ~9s you can see the momentum of that left kick (he thrust his torso to the right and back to add force I think?) combined with her doing a pivot/retreat to get closer to the guy who was behind her... ends up taking her out of the kicking guy's field of view.

If he can see her, it's at best peripheral. My guess is being nearly upside down (ie horizantal torso) plus having your leg in the way would create a window where it's hard to see what she is doing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
and she's far enough away it wouldn't have hit her anyway (but that may just be bad fight choreography)
If you mean on the 2nd kick: I think he begins to lift his left leg to prep for the 2nd kick around the 10s mark.

At this point he can see her, but maybe not his buddy so well.

He's probably thinking "she's shoving my buddy forward" or "she'll stay in place grappling my buddy".

Tossing a guy sideways is tougher than shoving him backward in most cases (you have to do a pivoting action, takes core strength) so that she ends up doing that is likely not an option he considered feasible enough to be a threat.

At around 13 seconds you can see she's begun to do this, but at this point the leg is fully chambered and he's actually hopping up in the air (via right leg) to deliver the kick.

I think at this point he's probably thinking that "I'm a fast kicker, I can still hit her before my buddy gets fully in my way" (assuming he notices that at all)

However the coup-de-gras I think isn't just that she tosses the buddy in the way: it looks like she also then ducks behind him.

The kicker, if he's focusing on her movements and tracking them (ie compensating his kick aim to her movements) would then, instead of kicking around his buddy, instinctively kick THROUGH him.

IE maybe in this case his trained reflexes of target-seeking worked against him?

To play devil's advocate though: maybe I shouldn't be assuming this kicking guy is incompetent?

The end result here is that when he kicks is buddy, the buddy is knocked back into the cop so she might be at risk of suffering damage or knockback herself, so he might figure "it's worth finishing this kick I've chambered than to pull it back, it's worth bruising my buddy to throw this cop off her came for a second so my 3rd/4th buddies can swoop in".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
As for what they were going for, I think it's possible with Technical Grappling to Parry an attack using the opponent you're grappling, so this could be a case of that, with her opting to burn up all her Control Points on the attempt and breaking the grapple.
Do you recall where in TG it mentions this? Closest I can remember is MA133's Proxy Fighting option "knock his proxy’s body into other people"

This however says "The controller may attack his proxy with any strike (not a grapple)" and it seems pretty clear grappling is what's happening here.

Also this is purely for attacks and not parries, which can only be done with the "puppet" option which also is clearly not happening (it requires matching up all 4 limbs, she just did a torso grapple)

- -

Some approaches I had in mind weren't using parrying

MA118's "Shoving People Around" seems close since she seems to be taking advantage of one of the three options a victory allows:
1) move behind them (your facing changes)
2) spin them around
3) make them take a step

The issue is how these three things affect the other guy's ability to kick.

What I'm thinking is: she is inherently "in a close combat" when she grapples this guy (whether she manages to SPA or not) which is already a defense against someone using a 1-yard kick against you: B392 = -2 to hit, and if there is a miss or you dodge then decent odds (9 or less: we will assume this is the guy's effective skill since his kicks seem incredibly Telegraphic) of hitting your ally.

The question is: how much better off should the cop be due to her succeeding at SPA ? Some theories:

1a) if cop is in close combat and behind the thug, perhaps there should be another -2 to hit her (on top of the -2 for striking into close combat) due to him acting like partial cover?

1b) due to your facing changing, instead of being attacked from behind (no defense) you're being attacked from the front, and can do a dodge

2) this would be useful if you fully spun the foe around (they're attacked from the rear, no defense) but this doesn't seem to be the case here. His facing does change slightly, but more like he's getting attacked from the side (-2 to defend) which might just be how when you take a step "forward" (non-center to front-left or front-right) you need to pivot to face the hex you step into? This could apply if taking option 3 below.

3) if she did indeed make him take a step (he does seem to move closer to the kicker) then this would mean that getting behind him could be explained by something else like "step and evade". That or, I guess in theory you might do "Combination: Grapple, SPA,SPA" and use one SPA to pivot/swap and the 2nd SPA to step/pivot your foe.

As to why she wouldn't spin him a complete 180 degrees (back to kick, no defense) that might be so that she can remain in his side hex for a followup to penalize him.

Another explanation (TG25) is how one option of SPA is replaced with TG35's Change Position technique, in which case the 2nd bullet "Shifting either your own or your foe’s relative facing" is easier if you're just going front>side (-2) instead of front>back (-6)

- -

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
This is covered explicitly in Fantastic Dungeon Grappling, on p. 8, under the title "Human Shield."
*checks page 4* seems like Frog March (new?) has some similarities to MA118's SPA rules. Does "if you win, you may take a step" also mean that anyone grappling you also takes this step in that direction as well?

Pg 8's application of FM rules via HS sounds like it's easier to wrench a grappled foe into the path of attacks than it would be to force them to take a step.

One thing that occurs to me about this rule is how it would work against an unresisting foe. Say for example you are grappling a high-HP yet ST 0 "character" like a buckler.

Maybe they still roll a contest of ST (perhaps at -4 like TG20 suggests for things that lack active defenses? Like how AOA automatically loses most contests except ST for proxy of mass, just at -4)

The best outcome in that case (a 3) vs an effective ST of -4 would mean a MOF of 7, so to win the contest the Frog-Marching Human-Shielder would just need to fail by a MoS of 6 or fewer points...

This would likely be much easier to do than a "block" defense (you get to roll against full grappling skill, not half+3 skill in Shield) and the only downside is that your shield takes damage from the attack instead of it glancing off harmlessly (like with a parry).

I'm trying to think of some ways to balance this, and wondering about your feedback:

1) we assume Frog Marching and Human Shield assumes the grappled HS is standing under their own power, so a small thing like a buckler would need to be resting on the ground, and should only be able to be interposed by targets that large (like your foot) while larger shields like tower shields resting on the ground might be HS'd to block your entire leg (but still not tall enough to protect torso or face)

2) to guard higher targets, you would need to elevate the shield via the Pickup technique (TG24) akin to readying a shield. This would create encumbrance penalties

3) both the Pickup technique and also the Frog Marching Human Shield approach would involve applying TG8's "Grappling Weight Modifier" penalties (though most shields probably aren't heavy enough for this to matter?) though I don't know how BL is applied with 1-handed grappling moves vs 2-handed (do you apply the same GWM and just do a -4 for 'sound of one hand grappling'?)

This might slightly narrow the gap but it seems like Human Shield applied to literal shields would still outshine the classic Block w/ Shield skill, so long as your shield had decent enough DR and HP to absorb the Basic Damage lobbed at it.
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