05-31-2018, 08:33 PM | #11 |
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
TFT doesn't have 35 years of playtesting *changes* to the system, fundamentally just the system as it is. Various groups have house-ruled different things to suit their playstyle, but not systemwide.
If someone wants to try to overcome the inherit limitations in the 3d6 bell curve and make these changes available to a world-wide testing audience, that has about 0 years of playtesting. :) 50 points is about where we see a breakdown, consider a hero type, ST-16 DX-20 (14) IQ-14 character. He wears plate armor and has a bunch of talents, shoots a heavy crossbow every other turn, and handles a great sword with aplomb. He's 40 years old, and starting to feel it. He doesn't get along with his mom very well. Guarding a magic scroll being transported to another high level wizard's shop, he is betrayed by his small security detachment of 36 point 30 something year old guards, being ??? in number, each of which has a standard 30 point guard wolf. They have all been promised a substantial sum for mis-delivery of this magical scroll, which they do not even dare to read, due to the rumored curse it holds. How many security guard with wolf pairs would you think is necessary to prevent further attribute bloat with this character? Four? Three? Two? Maybe even just one pair? As a GM, I've never had much problem with bloat, life just seems to put it to it, but that is just me... |
05-31-2018, 09:27 PM | #12 | |||||||||
Join Date: May 2015
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
My take & responses:
I think attribute bloat can be defined a few ways and goes along with a few other issues that deserve attention, but Rick's definition is pretty close to what I think of by attribute bloat: Quote:
Another aspect of that is making powerful NPCs starts to feel gamey and weird. There are only so many ways to combine three attributes, so you can try to get creative with Talents, spells and equipment, but it just starts to feel kind of fake and weird. Huge DX to wear armor. (Really?) Huge IQ to know spells, that means you make all other IQ rolls. (Really?) Huge ST for feats of great ST, including one-handed two-handed swords... (really?) or some mix... all seeming off and over-capable and dwarfing most normal people in the game. Add some magic and get some strong people like that in a group using decent tactics, and strength no longer really lies in numbers, and not even in a very interesting or credible way. Engage some normal warriors, line up and have higher DX, hit and kill them. If any manage to survive and hit you, they probably bounce off your armor. (Add healing spells, and the situation will arrive even sooner.) And it's not just an issue at the point the PCs get powerful. Some strong NPCs in a self-consistent logical world will be at high levels from campaign start. And magic items and fine weapons can also boost stats. Quote:
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(Upgrading to GURPS worked fine for us, actually...) Quote:
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Your DX-bonus talent idea is good. I like my idea of adding talents that give interesting abilities and use experience without raising attributes. Quote:
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05-31-2018, 11:07 PM | #13 | |
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Coquitlam B.C.
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
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The high level player is alone with a bunch of strangers? Where is the rest of his party? This example is very alien to how my players work. Your response to a player being successful is to manufacture an unfair fight to just kill her off? This example is very alien to how I work. This example seems so arbitrary that it is hard to see what argument you are trying to support with it. I could invent a counter example, (Players are prepared, magiced up with items and spells, in defensive terrain, etc.) That fight would go a lot differently, & would be closer to the sorts of things that happens in my campaign - but what is the point? We are playing two very different games. You have a meat grinder, where as I'm looking for sweeping complex plots. A lot of sessions happen in my campaigns where there is no fighting at all. Players, talk, argue, plot, make deals, intimidate NPC's, solve puzzles & build alliances. You are happy with a campaign where people die and die. That is fine. There is nothing wrong with your campaign. But if that is ALL that TFT is CAPABLE of handling, it will be a niche rpg. If the GM and players want to play in the 'end game', and TFT breaks down then, then they will leave and play some other rpg. *** I've GM'ed several hundred 32 attribute figures. They are dull, and alike. I prefer advanced campaigns where the characters are experienced and players are fighting big, complex problems. (My current campaign has a leader of a small town trying to hunt down an Urr Lich which depopulated the area 80 years ago. The Urr Lich is allied with the Slaver Empire. Finally to make things more difficult, hostile dwarves, and a different group of humans want to invade this area since they don't believe the Urr Lich is back, and the low population means that they can't be effectively resisted.) A key job is tracking down what happened to the adventuring party which defeated the Urr Lich 80 years ago, and find out what happened to their magic and discover what tactics they used. (The players have learned that big masses of low attribute troops didn't do much back then.) But fundamentally attribute bloat is not a problem for you. Your players die young. Congrats. But that is not the game I want to play any more. Characters do occasionally die in my campaign. But I prefer the deaths to be ... more meaningful. “Then out spake brave Horatius, The Captain of the gate: To every man upon this earth Death cometh soon or late. And how can man die better Than facing fearful odds For the ashes of his fathers And the temples of his gods." Rick Last edited by Rick_Smith; 06-01-2018 at 12:17 AM. Reason: Added more to my response. |
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06-01-2018, 08:44 AM | #14 |
Join Date: Feb 2018
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
My point is that the GM can manufacture all types of "challenges" to address the breakdown of the system in TFT when characters begin to be superheroes.
Be it cancer, large falling rocks, harsh weather, or infection from an ant sting, everyone dies. Having a party become separated, either through natural living events (the party doesn't live together, breathe together, work together, necessarily) or a character do something solo isn't unusual at all in our campaigns. TFT uses a 3d6 system, that total 18, and so breakdown naturally occurs at 45 plus, depending on other factors, of course. And that's fine by me. I don't think there is an easy way to "fix" that without destroying the fundamental way TFT works. |
06-01-2018, 01:09 PM | #15 |
Join Date: Mar 2018
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
THe amazingly successful formula for RPG, both video and pen and paper:
** Kill monsters, to gain XP and equipment, so you can become more powerful, so you can then kill more dangerous monsters So I guess I agree with Rick. No matter how powerful a character becomes, there are infinitely many ways of challenging them, in TFT as in other systems. I completely agree the bigger issue is that 32-point characters tend to have little in the way of personality. My name is Bob the Brave, I have a small shield, leather armor, and a cutlass. I can run, and woops, I died! Oh well. My name is Tim the Brave, I have a small shield, leather armor, etc... So it's nice to let them progress. You really need to get into the 40s before a wizard can use some of the interesting high IQ spells. |
06-01-2018, 01:21 PM | #16 |
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
Yes, but the silly thing is, it's easier for the experienced Wizard to cast his most difficult spell than it is for the less experienced Wizard to cast his easiest one. If the rolls were comparative, i.e. Against the IQ level of the spell, that would solve the problem, but it isn't. The system is just based on straight or absolute rolls (for the most part) and this becomes more obvious at higher levels.
Another example: two DX10 fighters have a 50% chance to hit one another; that seems fair enough. But two DX18 fighters have over 90% chance to hit one another. Why? Did they somehow forget about defence as they got more experienced? The system simply doesn't work as well once attributes get higher. |
06-01-2018, 02:17 PM | #17 | |
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Arizona
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
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06-01-2018, 06:53 PM | #18 |
Join Date: Jun 2012
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
Perhaps a poll is in order. I am still curious as to how many TFT games have reached the point where "attribute bloat" may or may not have become a problem and how long it took to reach that point.
It is easy to work the numbers and see that there is a point at which the numbers become wonky, but that point is moot if it is never reached in actual game play. If that point is reached within a couple of months of regular game play that is quite a different issue. |
06-01-2018, 08:26 PM | #19 | |
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
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besides: If Characters becomes 45+ super heroes in my games it could eventually happen only after countless weekly gaming sessions and years of real life playing. Never in a few sessions, never (ab)using the job table, never killing tons of lesser kobolds of ST 8 and DX7 for easy exp. If they are skilled and lucky to survive enough to reach this level, the quote applies: No matter how powerful a character becomes, there are infinitely many ways of challenging them, in TFT as in other systems. not counting that the game have already achieved its objective : tons of hours of fun so, in conclusion, attribute bloat is not a concept in my book.Even the perfect DX18 hero will die if outnumebered in a gentle way. And to be honest, I have heard about it for the first time joining this forum. I have seen sometime the opposite: players unhappy because their 32pts starting heroes die too often and are weak. But this is another story. |
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06-01-2018, 11:05 PM | #20 | |
Join Date: Dec 2017
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Re: Is Attribute Bloat real?
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Tags |
attribute, bloat, death, experience, fixing gm's |
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