Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-04-2018, 09:52 AM   #41
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Economies only exist to exchange goods and services. A production line that produces widgets that no one consumes is going to go out of business when the bills come due. An entire automated society where robots stockpile goods that no one consumes is not an economy, as there is no exchange of goods and services, just a useless warehousing of stuff until outsiders steal everything from storage.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 10:06 AM   #42
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Which generally means one of three things occur. First, the rich replace the non-rich with non-volitional AI until the entire economy collapses because there are insufficient consumers left. Second, the rich replace the non-rich with non-volitional AI until the non-rich rebel and restructure society to avoid non-volitional AI except in the most dangerous jobs. Third, the rich replace the noj-rich with non-volitional AI until the non-rich rebel and restructure society to give the unemployed a basic wage that allows them to consume enough to support the economy. The first is the trajectory of our current society, the second is the more likely alternative, and the third is the less likely alternative.
Assuming that the "rich" retain control of an industrial network capable of providing them with all their material desires...what do they need an economy for outside of their transactions with each other?

Last edited by David Johnston2; 08-04-2018 at 10:39 AM.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 10:14 AM   #43
Andreas
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl View Post
Economies only exist to exchange goods and services. A production line that produces widgets that no one consumes is going to go out of business when the bills come due. An entire automated society where robots stockpile goods that no one consumes is not an economy, as there is no exchange of goods and services, just a useless warehousing of stuff until outsiders steal everything from storage.
Even with such a definition for an economy, you would still only need a minimum of two agents who can trade with each other.

Adding a couple of people who do some trading with each other to such an automated society wouldn't cause it to collapse.
Andreas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 11:33 AM   #44
gruundehn
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas View Post
Even with such a definition for an economy, you would still only need a minimum of two agents who can trade with each other.

Adding a couple of people who do some trading with each other to such an automated society wouldn't cause it to collapse.
The goods and services consumed has to equal, or come near to equaling, what is produced or else the imbalance destroys the economy.

If two people trade widgets and 10 million are produced annually, the excess removes material from the economy that could have been used elsewhere. What doesn't get produced because of the excess widgets getting produced causes problems, especially if demand (either want or need) for what isn't produced is high.


Any economy is not just a minimum number of people wanting widgets but the total wants of the total population.
__________________
The World's Tallest Dwarf
gruundehn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 11:47 AM   #45
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gruundehn View Post
The goods and services consumed has to equal, or come near to equaling, what is produced or else the imbalance destroys the economy.
.
Oh no! People will be thrown out of work! Oh, wait, that already happened.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 12:39 PM   #46
AlexanderHowl
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Assuming that the "rich" retain control of an industrial network capable of providing them with all their material desires...what do they need an economy for outside of their transactions with each other?
Generally, the non-rich outnumber the rich. In democratic nations, they will eventually vote to take the wealth from the rich if the rich do not share it, as seen in the New Deal. In non-democratic nations, they will rebel and take it by force, as seen in the Communist Revolutions. Either peacefully or violently, the rich will share with the non-rich, the only question is whether they will do so voluntarily and live or involuntarily and die.
AlexanderHowl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 12:44 PM   #47
Daigoro
 
Daigoro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Meifumado
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

What happens when the rich use their AI killer robots to suppress the revolution?
__________________
Collaborative Settings:
Cyberpunk: Duopoly Nation
Space Opera: Behind the King's Eclipse
And heaps of forum collabs, 30+ and counting!
Daigoro is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 12:49 PM   #48
Jack Sawyer
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

In discussions like this I think it's important to define the variables that are at stake, and reconcile the differences that likely exist. I've not really delved into detailed AI anything (due to lack of interest) but I've often seen the same sort of disagreements over how data is interpreted or extrapolated from to predict 'realistic' outcomes... much like with any sci fi 'realism' discussion. It's all in the assumptions and interpretations, and it seems no different than with AI. How you 'define' AI for the purposes of the discussion, the traits, the way tech is progressing/will progress, etc. I could go on.

When it comes to TLs, maybe it's better to treat it more as a 'suggestion' rather than as a 'demand'. Or rather, that things have to be that way, it simply reflects the potential limits for said development. Whether or not it actually reaches that potential can depend on other factors (including human ones like culture, politics, driving factors and motivation, etc.) Human factors have been a major driving influence in the way lots of techs develop, and it's not likely they will stop doing so anytime soon.

And of course, treating it as a suggestion is consistent with how games in general operate generally...

Also the fact that there is disagreement over those aformentioned variables (what is AI, how it's likely to develop or what is 'realistic' for such) itself creates plenty of wiggle room for keeping people relevant. Adopting a more conservative view of AI development as opposed to a optimsitic one would contribute to that outcome. Whether or not it is 'realistic' has yet to be determined but it has no relevance at this point in time either until the issue is resolved. It's the same argument I've often seen with laser weapons dominating space warfare (or in some extreme cases, completely destroying it for some people.)

Last edited by Jack Sawyer; 08-04-2018 at 12:53 PM.
Jack Sawyer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 12:53 PM   #49
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daigoro View Post
What happens when the rich use their AI killer robots to suppress the revolution?
The problem of all those excess humans is solved! And we get that post-scarcity dystopia.
David Johnston2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2018, 12:59 PM   #50
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: Keeping humans relevant in the shadow of TL10 AI.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David L Pulver View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by under-powered - your example seems to suggest they are scoring more hits than you find desirable.

I do suspect that due to a confluence of factors and rules changes (the reduction in minimum speed of missiles that was added to lower missile damage in later printings) that ballistic attacks may presently be too easy.

Attempting to go through very early drafts of the rules and playtest notes is difficult, but I have a sneaking suspicion that this could reflect a conceptional error that may have over-rated the targeting modifiers for ballistic attacks (perhaps by accidentally including a targeting system bonus in addition to inherent attack bonuses, which shouldn't apply considering the type of guidance system that is assumed).

If that's the case, it might be realistic to increase the penalty on ballistic attacks.

If so, I'd experiment by changing it so that you have +0 to hit if you use proximity fuse and -4 if you do not, and then also further reduce the missiles (only) to (TL-12) for the lower size and (TL-11) for the higher size.

Please note that this does not represent an errata, but rather a suggestion for testing.
Whoops! I meant to type "over powered", not "under powered".

Just to check if I'm reading your suggestion right, is that sAcc that's TL-12 or TL-11, as opposed to the currently-written TL-8 or TL-7? So the net change is a -4 to sAcc, plus another -4 in the fusing modifiers (proximity vs. direct hit)? That would certainly change things, especially for the high-speed strike tactic where the missiles come in at 10+ mps. In my example that would actually cut hit chance to ~60% (11 or less), say nothing of getting a ridiculously excessive number of hits for the PD gunner to knock down.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.