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Old 11-05-2015, 08:05 AM   #21
Adversary
 
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

I would not do thrown knives. Other games make them fairly effective, with a high rate of fire and reasonable damage; gurps treats them more realistically.

Lots of good suggestions here on design. I'd just add that ranged weapons can potentially contribute more than you might think despite their poor damage and accuracy stats compared to melee. With a ranged attack you can potentially attack anyone in the combat, not just the person next to you. So you can choose to attack for instance:

--the buzzsaw enemy who is lightly armored and duel-wielding weapons with no shield (dangerous to come close to and good parry, but vulnerable to your missles)
--the wounded enemy who needs one more hit to go down
--the enemy who has turned his non-shielded side toward you or who has already blocked this round.
--the caster in the enemy's back rank.

If you go with a crossbow, your role may be that of a sniper, with thrown weapons you can think mobility--circle the edge of the battlefield to get attacks from the side and back. Maybe invest in acrobatics, extra move, or whatever else will let you tumble and evade through the combat. Be opportunistic.
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Old 11-05-2015, 08:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
Aiming is a pretty minor difference-maker (with the exception of the high Acc crossbow). Most weapons at this TL give an Acc of 1, which doesn't stack well against the magnitude of range penalties unless the character gets the opportunity to aim for the full three seconds.
...

Bows, and Crossbows both have good accuracy. It's a poor idea to complain about the inaccuracy of most things if you've got low skill, what that's telling you is not to choose the things with poor accuracy. Seriously, if you haven't got many points to spend, you're pretty much going to have to Aim, which means you'll have to have a weapon that gives you a good bonus for Aiming. (Or go the route of throwing as many weapons as you can, but that's heavy).

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
From a character standpoint, I also feel like my character just wouldn't be trained in crossbows or javelins. I can give him something like thrown knives as a skill that he picked up wandering the back alleys, but he wasn't in a military. Obviously there's a tradeoff here: when I let the character concept determine what skills are appropriate, I am forced into suboptimal choices from a point or effectiveness standpoint. My goal in this thread is to see what options are available so I can balance my character concept against the functional needs of the campaign.
If you're character picked up his ranged combat skill to help defend himself, then surely he'd have chosen something practical, like a crossbow, and definitely not something like throwing knives which do absolutely pitiful damage and are unlikely to hit?
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:10 AM   #23
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

Put more points into the skill. I personally don't see a problem.

If 20 of your points are in one skill, is that bad? =)
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Old 11-05-2015, 10:28 AM   #24
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

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Originally Posted by GodBeastX View Post
Put more points into the skill. I personally don't see a problem.

If 20 of your points are in one skill, is that bad? =)
Given that the OP said this was a 100-point game, 20 points in one skill is 20% of his budget, which edges it into "that's something he's focused on". Not sure if that's what he's going for.
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Old 11-05-2015, 11:06 AM   #25
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adversary View Post

--the buzzsaw enemy who is lightly armored and duel-wielding weapons with no shield (dangerous to come close to and good parry, but vulnerable to your missles)
Note that he can parry thrown weapons, often quite well.

Quote:
--the wounded enemy who needs one more hit to go down
Yes, specially if they are reeling and you are using a non thrown ranged weapon so they cannot parry and they do not have a shield.

Quote:
--the enemy who has turned his non-shielded side toward you or who has already blocked this round.
Note that they will still get a parry if you use thrown weapons.

Quote:
--the caster in the enemy's back rank.
If using the basic gurps magic, casters tend to have much better defenses against ranged attacks than melee.
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Old 11-05-2015, 12:43 PM   #26
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

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Originally Posted by Wavefunction View Post
If you're character picked up his ranged combat skill to help defend himself, then surely he'd have chosen something practical, like a crossbow, and definitely not something like throwing knives which do absolutely pitiful damage and are unlikely to hit?
On the other hand, I don't think a very expensive and maintenance-intensive weapon is that much more logical as a self defence item. Walking around with a crossbow isn't exactly concealed carry.
In a fantasy world it might be close enough to the innkeeper/farmer with his trusty old shotgun.

And actually, throwing knives and the like wouldn't be that bad. They're bad if you actually want to kill someone, especially in battle. But they're not bad for scaring off people. Weren't shuriken actually used for that? Just throw a bunch of them towards someone's face and run… Better, throw some caltrops.

But that's mostly searching for justifications while the character might've learned something. In the end this is about the player wanting something to contribute to combat, or at least something to do… Where good at running away isn't the best strategy for maximum group satisfaction.

Personally, I wouldn't even care that much about the beginning skill level. Put in a few points int something like bow or crossbow to indicate some basic competency. Then once adventuring is going on, emphasise that with earned points. Putting points in Kromm's adventurer's skill list makes more sense than raising already decent "core skills".
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Old 11-05-2015, 06:19 PM   #27
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

As others have pointed out, there are a few other options rather than just doing damage. My favorite for an intellectual (you mentioned mage) is tactics. Using the optional rule (from MA?) you can get uses of combat luck helping greatly where it's most needed.

You may also want to consider the throwing skill with TL-appropriate gadgets added. Remember that targeting the floor in a hex is +4. There are many options depending upon how realistic the game is:

Caltrops - Cheap, easily attainable, and will make a few hexes very ouchy.

Molotov cocktail - Cheap, easy, and scary, but also heavy and bulky. Lighting them could be a problem depending upon your spells.

Pitch - easy to obtain, but not realistically weaponizable. for a slightly cinematic game, covering someone with pitch and threatening them with a torch could work. For less realism, make it into a stickier, longer lasting Molotov.

Acid - Not really tech-level appropriate without magic, but could be very good. You'd have to actually aim for a person rather than the floor, though.

Monster's weakness - Trolls vulnerable to acid? Undead can't stand holy water? Fighting the aliens from signs? Just put it in a bottle, and you can throw it. Realism has a problem with things that don't break when you run, but do with a light impact. Depends on how strong the Rule of Cool is in your game.

Smoke bomb - Totally out of TL, but awesome. You could neutralize enemy ranged fighters by obscuring a few hexes.

Contact poison - So many realism problems.

Maybe consider taking a weapon art skill. Throw on a perk, and you can be really flashy and intimidating, drawing attention while still being full defensive.

Also, don't forget with all options that an all-out ranged attack gives you a +1. If you're not worried about an incoming attack, it can be worth it.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

Another option, if the GM allows it: Throwing Art. Then be prepared to throw fecking anything. Rocks, Molotovs, caltrops, knives, spears, kobolds- you name it! There's nothing that quite compares to a quiver full of kobolds... High enough skill also increases damage.

Or how about Blowpipe and Poisons?

Last edited by acrosome; 11-06-2015 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:47 AM   #29
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

If the other players are all melee combatants and there are a significant number of them (3 to 5), a long spear may be a strong option. It's not ranged, but the reach keeps you out of harms way most of the time. If the enemy doesn't have ranged attacks available, AOA from 3 hex's away and over an allies shoulder gives you either +4 to hit or +2 to damage. AOA(long) would give you a reach of 4 hexs with a long spear, which is farther than encumbered warriors will be able to reach in one round. AOA(double) does great damage against unarmoured targets, and forces them to use up active defenses so your front line fighters can hack them to bits with heavier weapons. A reach of 3 also allows for reach 1 fighters to retreat, so you avoid penalizing your enemies while attacking.

A long spear is $60, can be made balanced (My mistake with the staff before :P) for +4 cost factor, and very fine for +49 (high quality weapons are best for low ST characters, and probably worth the cash eventually). The final cost is $3240 for a weapon that does Thr+5 imp, +1 to skill, and is useable at 3 yards away.

With ST 11 (gives +1 damage over 10, might be worth the 10 points for the basic lift, HP, and damage) you're doing 1d6+4 (2d6 with damage to dice), 4 points gets you skill 11 at DX 10, +1 for being balanced gives skill 12. This is good enough to hit reliably when jabbing someone center of mass (Remember the 1 in 6 chance to hit the vitals on a torso hit!).

Stand behind two of your friends and an enemy will take 4 or 5 yards of movmenet to reach you, limiting them to a move and attack. Even reaching you like that will require them to turn their back on a front line fighter, who can take an easy brain/neck/vital shot and put the threat down pretty quickly. AOA(long) makes you even safer against melee, or defensive attack and take a bonus to dodge if people are threatening you with ranged weapons.

Some quick damage calculations (Mainly for myself, I might do this in the future). Looking at opponents with DR 0 or DR 4. Assuming defense of 11 and that AOA(Detemined) attacks are used to reduce defenses rather than increase already good hit chances:

Spoiler:  


So as shown above, against moderately armoured and skilled opponenets, your best bet is AOA(Determined) to lower their defenses. If you can get past the defenses, AOA(Strong) drives through the armour the most effectively. AOA(Double) does the most damage to unarmoured opponenets. Doing between 3.4 and 10 damage a round on average is pretty powerful, and you will be burning active defenses for your front line fighters so they can lay down more damage as well. A few rounds will be enough to strike down the average human combatant.

I think this would make for an effective second line fighter. He's not ranged, but a point or two in crossbow would let him at least do something if you get into a skirmishing fight, and the spear is far superior in melee combat in terms of raw damage and the ability to fight with you allies.

EDIT: For extra munchkinism, enchant the haft of the spear with the Staff enchantment and knock off 3 yards of penalty. If the DM says you need to cast out of an end not capped with magic (metal can't be enchanted, so it's fair) either spend a round switching the spear to point with the back side, or mount the spear head off center like a bayonet so the tip is exposed.
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Last edited by VariousRen; 11-06-2015 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Staff Idea
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Old 11-06-2015, 09:57 AM   #30
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Default Re: Creating a low point ST-based ranged fighter

Something I've had players in past fantasy campaigns do – and be aware that I'm talking full-blown fantasy with nonhumans, spells, potions, thieves' guilds, and entire "dark empires" of undead, not mostly realistic medieval-esque worlds with fantastic overtones – is have their noncombatant heroes contribute by partnering up with combatants.

One great example is the person who cocks and loads spare crossbows for the crack crossbowman. Even carrying pre-loaded ones is extremely useful. And keeping track of several quivers full of special bolts is nice, too, as is holding a lit torch and setting fire to flaming projectiles.

Another is the character who invests in nothing but Shield skill, Enhanced Block (Shield), and a perk or two related to that stuff – Sacrificial Block, Shield-Wall Training, Shoves and Tackles (Shield), etc. She bears a large shield and stands in front of an ally who uses a Reach 2 or 3 weapon. This allows her pal to attempt risky moves in relative safety. Slamming or evading even a low-ST fighter is tricky if she's good with a shield (which is both easy and Easy) and carries the largest one she can lift.

Yet another is the brainy tactician who gives his mates bonuses using Leadership, Strategy, and Tactics with rules like "Onward to Victory!" (GURPS Dungeon Fantasy 2, p. 11). He can stand a fair distance away and help out simply by yelling. Toss Born War Leader, Penetrating Voice, and Rallying Cry (Pyramid #3/61: Way of the Warrior, p. 9) in there for extra fun.

Depending on the noncombatant's skill set, there are also options like Medic! (Dungeon Fantasy 2, p. 11), where a pacifistic type dashes around insta-healing wounded friends. This becomes extra-useful if, on top of instant First Aid, she can deliver proper healing potions.

My experience is that such characters function as force multipliers of sorts, and often contribute far more than they would if they tried to engage the enemy directly.
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