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Old 05-18-2021, 10:24 AM   #1
Otaku
 
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Default [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

While doing some work with some templates, I realized I didn't know the rounding rules for the +/- 30% cap on raising/lowering a normal human character's HP or FP. Yes, p. B16 makes it clear that a realistic human with ST10 shouldn't have less than 7 HP or more than 13, but most of the time 30% doesn't give me whole numbers to work with. With CP costs and fractions, you always round up... but these aren't CP costs.

What is the RAW answer to how I should round? The recommended answer as well, if it is different from RAW?
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Old 05-18-2021, 10:48 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
While doing some work with some templates, I realized I didn't know the rounding rules for the +/- 30% cap on raising/lowering a normal human character's HP or FP. Yes, p. B16 makes it clear that a realistic human with ST10 shouldn't have less than 7 HP or more than 13, but most of the time 30% doesn't give me whole numbers to work with. With CP costs and fractions, you always round up... but these aren't CP costs.

What is the RAW answer to how I should round? The recommended answer as well, if it is different from RAW?
No answer that I can find, but Gurps power up 9 have those examples :

Quote:
ST 18 people can have HP 12-23
Quote:
HT 10-14, the “believable” range for FP ends up being, say, 7-18.
+-30% of 18 is 12.6 - 23.4, rounded down to 12-23

+-30% of 10-14 is 7 - 18.2, rounded down to 7-18

so I guess you just drop the decimals.
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Old 05-18-2021, 11:40 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

I'd do it by rounding the delta - either rounding down, or rounding normally. That is, 30% of 18 is 5.4, which rounds down to 5, so you can do +5 (for 13-23). This will give the range the same sort of symmetry as is seen at a base of 10 (or 20, 30, etc), rather than having some cases be lopsided (like 18, which can be -6 or +5). That's just a personal preference for my slight OCD, however.
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Old 05-18-2021, 01:40 PM   #4
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

I wouldn't go BEYOND 30%. If 30% doesn't divide perfectly, then you go the next step down.

So if your health is 12 and you want fewer FP, you could go UP TO 30% fewer. 30% would be 3.6...can't do 8.4 FP, so 9, drop it 3 points to 9. You can't go up past 30% more which would be 15.6, so 15 would be max.
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Old 05-18-2021, 02:00 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

One option would be to take "no more than 30%" literally. A 30% difference from (say) ST 15 would mean you couldn't buy HP lower than 10.5 or higher than 19.5, so, since buying fractional HP isn't an option, the lowest you can buy is 11 and the highest is 19.

EDIT: And someone's posted the same idea while I wrote it.
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Old 05-18-2021, 06:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

As Ravenfish and Boge have said, the RAW don't say to round at all and there is no need for a rounded figure. Don't round.

If the limit is a fraction you can have any integer value within the limit and you can't have any integer value beyond the limit. That's clear and actionable and does not need rounding.
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Old 05-18-2021, 06:43 PM   #7
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

30% or less seems to imply that you would round down. Otherwise, you'll be over 30%.

That being said, it seems less like a rule and more like a suggestion. IIRC, you can take a level Unusual Background perk to exceed it if it's not just outright ignored.
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Old 05-19-2021, 11:41 AM   #8
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

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Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
As Ravenfish and Boge have said, the RAW don't say to round at all and there is no need for a rounded figure. Don't round.

If the limit is a fraction you can have any integer value within the limit and you can't have any integer value beyond the limit. That's clear and actionable and does not need rounding.
So... don't round, but then round. ;)

Semantics aside, I believe I get the points you all made. Then again, perhaps my initial confusion over what Agemegos was saying means I wasn't very clear with my opening post, or that I have misunderstood some or most of you. To give you an idea, I almost asked in much more specific terms, whether I should "Round Off, Round Up, Round Down," etc. When I need to stick to integer values within a range where the minimum and/or maximum are expressed with a non-integer value, I tend to think of that as "rounding" of some sort.

So, let me just run through what was said really, quickly.

Thank you Celjabba, for including an example from an actual GURPS document, and for showing enough of your calculations to follow. Based on this bit from Power-Ups 9, one would add or subtract 30% of the HP (or FP) value from the HP (or FP) value, then round down.

Without that example, I was leaning towards what Boge, ravenfish and (I think) Agemegos were saying. Not quite the same, as I was messing up the order of operations. I think.

Varyon, I think I perfer your approach, for the reasons you gave.

naloth, you also make a good points as well. I'm converting some 3e templates to 4e, for general purposes, and haven't needed to exceed allowable HP scores. Indeed, this whole thing could be down to me misunderstanding GURPS Template Toolkit 1. I'm trying to correctly write out permissible increases to HP where the 3e counter part just listed the old "Extra HP [5/level]" as an option. I am well aware that HP now costs 2/level, but optional increases to Attributes - and so I assumed Secondary Characteristics - are to be written a certain way. Namely, as a range of what is permissible.
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Old 05-19-2021, 12:28 PM   #9
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

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Originally Posted by Otaku View Post
Varyon, I think I perfer your approach, for the reasons you gave.
Do note that, if you opt for the "round down" option, you get the same results as with Agemegos' suggestion.
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Old 05-19-2021, 04:56 PM   #10
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Default Re: [Basic] Questions About Raising/Lowering Secondary Characteristics

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
Do note that, if you opt for the "round down" option, you get the same results as with Agemegos' suggestion.
Just goes to show how easily confused I can be. XD
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