Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-12-2025, 07:28 PM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

The animal ally builds in Allies seem ill-suited for PC Alternate Forms, for various reasons. I decided to throw together some more to my taste—and it occurs to me that some other people might be interested in them:
  • Bull (39 points): ST +17 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%; Size, -20%) [68]; SM +2 [0]; DR 2 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Skull Only, -70%) [2]; Enhanced Move 0.5 (Ground) [10]; Hooves [3]; Striker (Impaling; Horns) [8]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Quadruped [-35]; Weak Bite [-2].
  • Elephant (232 points): ST +35 (Size, -30%) [245]; DR 4 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Tough Skin, -40%) [4]; Enhanced Move 0.5 (Ground) [10]; Extra-Flexible Arm [5]; Extra Legs (Four Legs) [5]; Peripheral Vision [15]; Striker (Crushing; Tusks) [5]; Bad Grip 3 [-15]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Horizontal [-10]; One Arm [-15]; Weak Bite [-2].
  • Gorilla (51 points): ST +5 (Size, -10%) [45]; Basic Move +1 [5]; SM +1 [0]; Arm ST 3 (Size, -10%) [14]; Brachiator [5]; DR 1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Flexible, -20%) [2]; Extra Arms 2 (Foot Manipulators, -30%; Short, -50%) [4]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Ham-Fisted 1 [-5]; Semi-Upright [-5].
  • Grizzly Bear (20 points): ST +9 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%; Size, -10%) [45]; HT +1 [10]; Basic Speed -0.25 [-5]; Basic Move +2 [10]; Blunt Claws [3]; DR 2 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Flexible, -20%) [4]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 2 (Cold) [2]; Cannot Speak [-15]; No Fine Manipulators [-30]; Semi-Upright [-5].
  • Falcon (-35 points): ST -7 [-70]; DX +2 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%) [24]; Basic Speed -0.50 [-10]; Per +2 [10]; SM -4 [0]; Acute Vision 3 [6]; Enhanced Move 1 (Air) [20]; Sharp Beak [1]; Sharp Claws [5]; Flight (Cannot Hover, -15%; Winged, -25%) [24]; Cannot Speak [-15]; No Fine Manipulators [-30]; Feature (Ground move is 2) [0].
  • House Cat (-45 points): ST -6 [-60]; DX +2 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%) [24]; Per +2 [10]; Basic Speed -0.50 [-10]; Basic Move +4 [20]; SM -3 [0]; Catfall [10]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Sharp Claws [5]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Quadruped [-35].
  • Lion (26 points): ST +6 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%; Size, -10%) [25]; DX +1 (No Fine Manipulators, -40%) [12]; Per +2 [10]; Basic Speed -0.25 [-5]; Basic Move +4 [20]; SM +1 [0]; DR 1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Flexible, -20%) [2]; Night Vision 5 [5]; Sharp Claws [5]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 1 (Cold) [1]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Quadruped [-35].
  • Wolf (-6 points): Per +4 [20]; Blunt Claws [3]; Discriminatory Smell [15]; DR 1 (Cannot Wear Armor, -40%; Flexible, -20%) [2]; Night Vision 2 [2]; Sharp Teeth [1]; Temperature Tolerance 1 (Cold) [1]; Cannot Speak [-15]; Quadruped [-35].

One thing to highlight: I didn't give the elephant "Long Arm" or "Weak Arm", though lots of GURPS sources use both. Real-life elephant trunks seem to be around 6 feet, typically, which suggests the Reach 2 they get automatically for being SM +3 is plenty. The idea that an elephant's trunk should have the "1/4 ST" version of "Weak" also seems clearly wrong—an elephant's trunk is much stronger than the arm of an ST 11 human. The "1/2 ST" version is more arguable, but I still say it doesn't fit—particularly because any impressive feat you've ever heard of an elephant doing with it's trunk is what GURPS would call a one-handed lift. Officially, GURPS limits those to 2×BL, which at ST 22 is just 194 lbs.
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.

Innkeeper's Quest: A GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Forum Quest

Last edited by Michael Thayne; 01-14-2025 at 05:01 AM.
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 05:55 AM   #2
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
One thing to highlight: I didn't give the elephant "Long Arm" or "Weak Arm", though lots of GURPS sources use both. Real-life elephant trunks seem to be around 6 feet, typically, which suggests the Reach 2 they get automatically for being SM +3 is plenty. The idea that an elephant's trunk should have the "1/4 ST" version of "Weak" also seems clearly wrong—an elephant's trunk is much stronger than the arm of an ST 11 human. The "1/2 ST" version is more arguable, but I still say it doesn't fit—particularly because any impressive feat you've ever heard of an elephant doing with it's trunk is what GURPS would call a one-handed lift. Officially, GURPS limits those to 2×BL, which at ST 22 is just 194 lbs.
On one hand, I think a lot of the more impressing lifting feats done by elephants involve using the trunk to brace the object against the tusks and then lifting with the body, which would use full ST. On the other hand, Weak is an absolutely horrible deal, particularly when you don't have any limbs that aren't Weak*, so I'd be all for avoiding it here.

For falcons, while the current build works as-is, I'd be inclined to give the option to have Ham-Fisted rather than No Fine Manipulators - with a human mind behind it, a raptor's talons could probably manage better manipulation than, say, a wolf paw. I read Animorphs a lot as a kid, and I remember Tobias (who was stuck in hawk form) making good - if a bit clumsy - use of a Dracon pistol (a handheld energy weapon). In DF, you probably aren't going to have many items like that, but if you do, an enhanced version of the template may be appropriate.

*It would probably be more fair, in cases where all of a character's arms are weak compared to the rest of their body, to allow them to buy some of their ST with the No Fine Manipulators -40% Limitation. Such ST would be unavailable to their arms, but would work for everything else. So, if your ST 45 elephant should have an ST 30 trunk, you could give them ST +20 (Size -30%) [140] and ST +15 (No Fine Manipulators -40%; Size -30%) [45], for a total cost of [185] instead of [245] for ST (and thus a template cost of [168] instead of [228]).
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 08:45 AM   #3
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
*It would probably be more fair, in cases where all of a character's arms are weak compared to the rest of their body, to allow them to buy some of their ST with the No Fine Manipulators -40% Limitation. Such ST would be unavailable to their arms, but would work for everything else. So, if your ST 45 elephant should have an ST 30 trunk, you could give them ST +20 (Size -30%) [140] and ST +15 (No Fine Manipulators -40%; Size -30%) [45], for a total cost of [185] instead of [245] for ST (and thus a template cost of [168] instead of [228]).
For centaurs, I've thought about "lower body ST" as a -30% limitation, roughly similar to HP + Lifting ST + Striking ST (Kicks Only, -60%). But that model doesn't quite work for elephants because of their tusks (and I guess, theoretically, their bites).
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.

Innkeeper's Quest: A GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Forum Quest
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 02:55 PM   #4
Dalin
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

This is great! Thanks for sharing.
Dalin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 03:19 PM   #5
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
For centaurs, I've thought about "lower body ST" as a -30% limitation, roughly similar to HP + Lifting ST + Striking ST (Kicks Only, -60%). But that model doesn't quite work for elephants because of their tusks (and I guess, theoretically, their bites).
The No Fine Manipulators Limitation would probably work alright for centaurs as well. Yeah, it would generally be the same cost for them to have their bites use full ST as have it use the reduced Fine Manipulators ST, but then that's just a consequence of the fact that reduced bite force is considered to be worth almost nothing in GURPS (Weak Bite gives -2 per die - on average a bit less than half damage - and is only a Quirk*, after all). And, really, that "lower body ST" arguably should be a larger than -30% Limitation - that Lifting ST shouldn't increase the character's actual Basic Lift (defined as what they can lift with their arms), but rather just their Encumbrance totals and BL when using the legs, so should probably have a Limitation to account for that. That probably isn't the -67% Limitation that would be necessary to get it all the way to the -40% average, but I think it's probably an alright approximation. Then again, it's not that big of a deal if you're paying an extra [1] per ST compared to what I think is "fair," if your version makes more sense to you.

*EDIT: My mistake, it appears it's actually a Disadvantage worth [-2]. It's still only a very small value, of course, but I suppose it has a bit of room for modification - you could argue for [-1] for -1/die, [-2] for -2/die, [-3] for -3/die, and [-5] for No Bite ([-4] would be -4/die, which is basically no damage; lacking the basic manipulating abilities of a bite could be argued as being worth a further [-1], hence [-5], plus it plays well with GURPS' general love of multiples of 5). So if your centaur's human-torso strength is sufficiently-lower than their horse-torso strength that it would cause a -1/die to bite damage, you could give them a [-1] trait.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul

Last edited by Varyon; 01-13-2025 at 03:29 PM.
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 04:12 PM   #6
mehrkat
 
mehrkat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Austin Texas
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

I would recommend some "utility" forms for lower cost. Smaller animals that might come in handy. Owl, Cat, Pigeon, mouse

By the time you lower strength you could have a shapeshifter that can be a utility belt of random abilities to fill some niches in ability points. I often run low level beginning Dungeon Fantasy to simulate DnD like games at a lower level so I often find myself wishing for low cost animals that aren't geared towards combat.

the ones you have are definitely cool. Sorry I realized my post came off as "um actually-ing" They were really cool and immediately made me think some more about my attempts.
__________________
He stared out in the distance to see the awesome might of the Meerkat war party.
mehrkat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-13-2025, 05:44 PM   #7
benz72
 
benz72's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Chagrin Falls
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

I think Parrot would be interesting in play. Remove Cannot Talk and you have a fun form.
__________________
Benundefined
Life has a funny way of making sure you decide to leave the party just a few minutes too late to avoid trouble.
benz72 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2025, 05:08 AM   #8
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalin View Post
This is great! Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehrkat View Post
I would recommend some "utility" forms for lower cost. Smaller animals that might come in handy. Owl, Cat, Pigeon, mouse
Oh totally. I have a falcon in there which fills the "utility" niche, and I went ahead and added a cat.

Funnily enough, adding the cat caused me to notice that my lion was missing Cannot Speak, which sort of snowballed into noticing a bunch of other omissions—bull missing Weak Bite, elephant missing DR, and everything with DR missing Cannot Wear Armor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mehrkat View Post
the ones you have are definitely cool. Sorry I realized my post came off as "um actually-ing" They were really cool and immediately made me think some more about my attempts.
Oh, no problem, especially since you caused me to notice a bunch of oversights I was then able to correct!
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.

Innkeeper's Quest: A GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Forum Quest
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2025, 07:28 AM   #9
Varyon
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
... and everything with DR missing Cannot Wear Armor.
Technically, barding should be an option - Low Tech has options for horse, camel, elephant, and dog armor (the last should work for wolves as well), and other animals should be possible to armor as well. Of course, considering these are intended as Alternate Forms, and most people aren't going to be carrying around a secondary set of barding (or several, for those with more than one Alternate Form), I'd be fine with tossing it on as a sort of "Give me a discount and I'll agree to not wear armor." Well, I would be if I liked the Cannot Wear Armor Limitation, anyway (it should really be a separate Disadvantage, with cost either independent of DR or actually giving fewer points back the more DR you have, but the latter would be complicated and setting-dependent; a "Doesn't Stack with Armor" Limitation would be more appropriate - I think Dungeon Fantasy Denizens: Barbarians have a Limitation like that). I don't know if there's an enchantment you can toss onto armor to allow it to change size and shape with you, but if so a character might be inclined to get such and subsequently buy off any Cannot Wear Armor Limitation on their DR.
__________________
GURPS Overhaul
Varyon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-14-2025, 10:01 AM   #10
Michael Thayne
 
Michael Thayne's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Default Re: [Dungeon Fantasy] Affordable animal forms

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
considering these are intended as Alternate Forms, and most people aren't going to be carrying around a secondary set of barding (or several, for those with more than one Alternate Form)
This was my thinking. Honestly, the one I hesitated most on was the gorilla, because what if the party scavenges some appropriate armor from a gladiator ape (from Monsters 1)? But I figured realistically this was unlikely to be an issue.
__________________
Handle is a character from the Star*Drive setting (a.k.a. d20 Future), not my real name.

Innkeeper's Quest: A GURPS Dungeon Fantasy Forum Quest
Michael Thayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.