Questions about weapons!

[tbone]

Questions about weapons! (Not "What is the riddle of steel?"; Conan already tackled that.)

I've got 10, many in the form of "does my understanding/ruling seem sensible?" For any, please let me know if the question is already addressed somewhere in the sprawling GURPSverse - and whether it is or isn't, feel free to detail how you'd rule on it.


Broken weapons and special traits

You’ve got a weapon that benefits from Weapon Bond or Weapon Master, but it breaks, leaving you with a half-weapon that's still functional but different (a staff from a broken polearm, a dagger from a broke smallsword, etc., per Exploits p. 56). Do you keep the benefits of the traits?

My guess: You lose Weapon Bond, as perfect feel, familiarity, etc. are the trait's justifications.

Weapon Master is a little trickier, but there's this text in the broken weapon rules: "If the weapon effectively becomes a different kind of weapon, figure skill and damage according to the new weapon type!" From that, I’d guess that if the new weapon type still falls under your WM specifications, WM applies; otherwise, not.

Does that sound sensible?


Signature Gear = unbreakable?

Signature Gear "insures” a weapon "against the vagaries of adventuring". Further description only details loss and theft, though. What about normal breakage due to parrying a heavy weapon, an attack on the weapon by a foe, etc.? Is the Signature Gear weapon as vulnerable as any other to this breakage, or is it effectively immune?

(If the latter, Signature Gear is quite an alternative to the $8,000 Shatterproof enchantment…)


"Flame on"… and off?

Are the Flaming Weapon and Continual Light enchantments "always on", or can they be freely switched off? Always-on light sources can be bad for stealth. A scabbard, bag, etc. could hide Continual Light on a weapon, but how do you sheathe gear that’s burning with Flaming Weapon? Or even set it down safely?

(Along those lines: Is Flaming Weapon meant to act as real fire that can set things alight, or is it "extra damage only" with flames as a special visual effect?)


Parrying atlatl-ed spears

A normal character can parry thrown weapons, but not missile weapons.

The Spear Thrower skill is listed under missile weapon skills, and the atlatl/woomera don't carry a thrown weapon's "T" in their "Shots" stats.

So… getting all picky, this would mean you can parry a spear or javelin if thrown, but not if hurled with a spear thrower. Does that sound technically correct? (And would you ignore that and just rule "yes, you can parry the spear" regardless of how it was hurled, to avoid looking all pedantic?)


Khopesh: single- or double-edged?

The khopesh description in Magic Items 2 says the blade is "similar to a long sickle sharpened on its outside edge." But it further says a hook maneuver delivers cutting damage. So I guess the text should be read as "similar to a long sickle that’s also sharpened on its outside edge."

Any forum experts on ancient weapons object to this reading?


Parry after a hilt punch with a cutlass

I had earlier made the clever ruling that a parry with a cutlass’ blade on the same turn after a hilt punch should take a penalty, as a hilt punch hardly falls under proper sword fighting form.

But I then realized that such a ruling is unnecessary. The hilt punch is performed with Boxing, Brawling, or DX, not Shortsword, so under normal "a weapon uses a single skill for the entire turn" rules, a hilt punch means the weapon is stuck in Boxing/Brawling/DX mode for the remainder of the turn, and thus technically can’t perform a blade parry anyway.

The question: Is my enlightened understanding correct, or am I missing something?


Dwarven whetstone and arrows

A player asks: Does a dwarven whetstone work on arrows/bolts? Sure, I don’t see why not. It’s actually a great idea, as the big limitation of the tool – "first blow" – doesn’t matter for projectiles.

Which means… If a PC archer has a dwarven whetstone, and can reasonably spend 1 minute per arrow on sharpening (simple enough, especially while in town), then it’s only fair to assume that all of the PC’s arrows get +1 damage.

So my advice to archers: If you can afford it, make a dwarven whetstone your first choice for a damage bonus. (It’s an up-front investment, but the damage bonuses are essentially free thereafter.) Then go for the Fine weapon mod (just +$4 per arrow). If you need more damage beyond that, go for the Puissance enchantment (+$25 per arrow).

The question: Any flaw in that advice?


Projectiles with Balanced = great bargain?

More from the world of archer optimization: There’s an Accuracy enchantment that’ll add +1 TH to a projectile for $25. Good to know, but an archer should always go for the Balanced mod first: same effect, much lower cost.

Hm, what about other projectiles? Unshaped rocks and stones are explicitly denied Balanced, but it appears that shaped rocks, shaped stones, lead bullets, and lead pellets can all take the mod. And at ridiculously low cost: a lead bullet goes from $0.1 to the not-so-princely price of $0.5.

The question: No real rules question; just wondering whether archers and slingers in your games all swear by the Balanced mod. It seems a great bargain to me!


Lead bullets = lead pellets?

Lead bullets and lead pellets have the same stats; are they the same thing? No, I’d guess, or they’d be a single entry. So the difference is… what? Pellets are spheres, bullets are oblong?

The obvious question: So what happens if I interchange the two? If there’s no rule, I’d think a small penalty would suffice; anyone already have a ruling on this?


Silver bullets (and pellets, and stones…)

Can lead bullets and pellets take the Meteoric or Silver mod? The text specifies metal projectiles, so that seems a "yes". Which means these are fantastic specialty ammo vs wizards and werewolves. At +19 CF for either mod, a pure meteoric or pure silver bullet/pellet costs a paltry $2, the same as a mundane arrow. It’s an amazing bargain…

…and a really abusive money hack. Buy 16 silver bullets for $32, and you’ve also bought a pound of silver for quite the discount from the usual $1,000. (Likewise, I don’t know the official per-lb price of meteoric iron, but I’m pretty sure it’s not intended to be $32.)

I think the cause of the problem is clear: The CF for Silver or Meteoric assumes an upgrade to the special metals from already-expensive steel, not from cheap lead. So lead bullets/pellets have to be handled differently.

My simple approach: Assume that a 1-lb lump/ingot of steel is worth $50. Tack on the +19 CF for silver, and you get the $1,000 of a 1-lb silver ingot.

Treat the price of bullets, rocks, etc. as if these were steel, before applying the CF.

• 1-lb rock, silver: $50, +19 CF → $1,000
• 0.05-lb stone, silver: $50x0.05 = $2.5, +19 CF → $50
• 0.06-lb bullet/pellet, silver: $50 x 0.06 = $3, +19 CF → $60

All of which is the same as saying "Price these things as if they were lumps of silver of the given weight" (which they are). That would seem simpler. But the above approach also works with other mods, like Meteoric or Silver Coating. (It’d also be the way to price projectiles with the Orichalcum mod, though I don’t see any reason for buying those…)

Final note: The game treats silver coins and silver ingots the same in terms of value, i.e., it’s based on their weight alone, with no extra value for shaping (or lack thereof). I’m assuming the same above: whether the item is a nice ingot, an oblong bullet, or an ugly blob, the value of simple shaping is trivial compared to the value of the metal; we can ignore shape and price the above from weight alone.

The question: Is the above a reasonable approach to pricing silver/meteoric bullets, pellets, etc.? Has anyone already tackled pricing these?


Thanks, all!

[sir_pudding]

Losing a signature weapon to breakage is, IMO, not any different from losing it in another way. Which means that should it happen you get an opportunity to repair or replace it. Narsil wasn't unbreakable, obviously, but was reforged.

[Polkageist]

I've been DM'ing a dungeon fantasy game for a while so I'll take a crack at it.


Broken weapons and special traits

Yeah, sadly if the weapon with the weapon bond breaks then the advantage doesn't apply anymore. HOWEVER if they go through the trouble of repairing it then it'd come back without cost, a good incentive to play out caring for a beloved weapon. WM is indeed a little trickier, but because that advantage is that you're just so good at weapons then if the new type is valid then everything's good to go.

Signature Gear = unbreakable?

There's the second half of the advantage that notes if the weapon is lost through no fault of your own then the GM will contrive to replace it with something equal. Heck, contrive to get the weapon itself back be it a change of action where it's knocked away out of sight for the scene or trivially repaired with a moment of downtime. It's a creative opportunity! If the player CHOOSES to parry a heavy weapon with their heirloom sword that's kinda their fault, so PC please be aware. A foe attacking the weapon though is not the player's fault so that'd be a replacement. Think of it this way, if the player goes "I do X" and the weapon is lost then that's on them, and if the GM says "I do X" and the weapon is lost then it should be replaced.

It's not immunity, it's an agreement with the player that the character will always have this thing. If it breaks, a remedy comes along directly. As always, read between the lines and see if the player has truly gambled with their weapon and made the deliberate choice to put it at risk. And I say player here because it's a bit of a meta-game advantage. I'd hate to discourage good RP where (for example) a hot-headed (read: overconfident, bad temper, impulsive, common PC disads) character insults the local guy in charge and ends up with their stuff confiscated. Probably resolve the situation first, but once that's done with their signature gear is back in their hands. Remember, you're on the same team to have a good time so a head's up warning that an action might cost them their signature gear is not at all out of place and a good friend thing to do.


"Flame on"… and off?

Continual light, always on and the 'bag it' solution is true for everything from glowing stones to shiny shields and more. Flaming weapons, I think that's a setting toggle. So pick one and stay consistent, but either (it's actual fire, sets things alight and demands a metal scabbard) is a valid reading. But don't get too far down the physics rabbit hole, it is magic after all so let it alone if it's put away properly.


Parrying atlatl-ed spears

I'd personally err on the side of "yes, you can parry the spear" since it does feel less fussy and pedantic, said for a game that is famously fussy and pedantic :D


Khopesh: single- or double-edged?

Not an expert, but yeah they're sharp where they need to be. And I'm sure that historically there are single edged, double edged, single-but-opposite-of-what-you-think edged, edged but only enough to look good for ceremonies...


Parry after a hilt punch with a cutlass

Yeah you're right I think. I'd almost say that it's a bit pedantic (certainly easier to just parry and get on with it) but there are several other weapons that have this kind of switch situation. So yeah if you use it for the boxing/brawling punch during your turn then parries would be with that skill until your next turn.


Dwarven whetstone and arrows

Nope, whetstones on arrows is A+ pro-strat. Even better on quality arrows. Beware of dwarves with crossbows.


Projectiles with Balanced = great bargain?

It is a great bargain! And it really takes the edge off of range penalties.


Lead bullets = lead pellets?

You're correct, they're not the same thing but I think the difference is more with the delivery system rather than the ammunition. A sling can toss anything, a prodd has to use a pellet. For a sling make no distinction, for a prodd it's pellets only.


Silver bullets (and pellets, and stones…)

Oh dang, yeah metal $/mass has caught me a couple of times with things like statuettes and stuff. So yeah, bullets/pellets can definitely take those mods since they are metal. But your idea of cost-adjusting it so that it's sensible for "pure" metal ammo is a really good one. I think this is a rules wrinkle that the devs might not have caught way back when, since who would put such an expensive mod on something so cheap as a lead bullet?

Also, money hacks get shut down on the meta-game side, almost as a unanimous "That's a neat trick we found, anyway on with the game."

Consider that the silver ammo may be silver plated lead (more so than the weapon coating, less so than a PURE silver shot), which would explain the relatively low cost but still effective use on silver-vulnerable targets. But that's kinda hacky backwards justification and I REALLY like your treatment of the solid metal cost calculation for specialty sling ammo.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by tbone

Questions about weapons! (Not "What is the riddle of steel?"; Conan already tackled that.)

Broken weapons and special traits

Sounds right to me, that is Weapon Bond is gone, and you reassess whether Weapon Master applies on the basis of whatever weapon and weapon skill you are now using, regardless of what it was last turn.

Signature Gear = unbreakable?

Signature Gear suffers from several definitions, but in general I'd say no - it breaks, but if it wasn't obviously your fault you get a reasonable chance to fix or replace it with something with identical performance in the fairly near future. If it [was] obviously your fault - you knew the thing you tried to parry was incredibly heavy - then it's gone, just like if you broke it on purpose.

"Flame on"… and off?

As castable spells, they have durations, and you could end them early in the usual way, by spending another point of energy.

For the enchantments, eh, Flaming Weapon says it flames at no cost when the weapon is used. It's not being used in the sheath, so it presumably goes out. Continual Light says it glows permanently, so no you can't shut it off, which is how I think everybody has played glowing magic swords since forever anyway, and yeah they're a pain for stealth, but that gets ignored pretty often just like all the other light sources the party needs to have in order to see.

(Along those lines: Is Flaming Weapon meant to act as real fire that can set things alight, or is it "extra damage only" with flames as a special visual effect?)

It's a Fire spell and doesn't have Phantom Flame in its prerequisite chain, so I'd call it real. Flame Jet explicitly mentions it will burn through ropes, and seems a close relative.

Parrying atlatl-ed spears

Yes. Note that realistic spear thrower "spears" are not interchangeable with throwing spears, they're substantially lighter and more flexible on purpose. And yeah, I know, that's not how the GURPS weapon tables make it look.

And there is a rule for parrying missiles like arrows, it's just a penalty, presumably because they are faster, which the lighter, longer lever arm spear thrower projectiles are too. It's certainly not the case you can parry any spear - somebody could launch one from a railgun or something.

Khopesh: single- or double-edged?

Historically single edged (and it's probably functional, extra thickness helps stiffen them). And of course they derive from epsilon axes, so the transitional forms are clearly single edged. Modern depictions do seem to have edges (or sometimes points) inside the curve a lot of the time. Whoever wrote the rule presumably had such a reproduction in mind.

I had earlier made the clever ruling that a parry with a cutlass’ blade on the same turn after a hilt punch should take a penalty, as a hilt punch hardly falls under proper sword fighting form.

Arguable either way. Personally I'd say if your blade has a hilt heavy enough to punch with that probably is taught as part of the form. But maybe it's training and everybody is expected to take the Form Adaptation perk to switch between them at will.

Dwarven whetstone and arrows

Whetstones work on edged weapons, which don't seem to have an official definition. Arrows are usually impaling. It's not clear exactly what the original authorial intent was here. Though Dungeon Fantasy does make it explicit it does add to impaling damage there, so if you are using that rules set, I think you're safe.

Projectiles with Balanced = great bargain?

I'd be inclined to say bullets [already] include balanced. It's a sphere, or very smooth uniformly dense solid of rotation. What can you possibly do to it to make it [more] balanced? Not to mention a lot of ammunition experimenters have proved it doesn't make a lot of difference if your bullets are scuffed and dented.

Lead bullets = lead pellets?

Lead bullets and lead pellets have the same stats; are they the same thing?

Probably not, they're ammunition for different weapons right? On the other hand, real lead sling ammunition spans a huge range of size and shapes, and there are no real rules for addressing that.

In normal English pellets are generally smaller than bullets, which may or may not be true for GURPS technical vocabulary.

[QUOTE]
Silver bullets (and pellets, and stones…)[QUOTE]

Yes, we all know CF is broken for all kinds of edge cases. I'd say silver yes (but at substantially more than +19 CF, a bullet is surely at least as much weight as a silver coin!). Meteoric bullets sure for slings and smoothbores, for rifling probably not - silver is probably pushing it, meteoric iron is too hard.

All of which is the same as saying "Price these things as if they were lumps of silver of the given weight" (which they are).

Yes, easiest solution once you admit CF is not universally workable.

Final note: The game treats silver coins and silver ingots the same in terms of value, i.e., it’s based on their weight alone, with no extra value for shaping (or lack thereof). I’m assuming the same above: whether the item is a nice ingot, an oblong bullet, or an ugly blob, the value of simple shaping is trivial compared to the value of the metal; we can ignore shape and price the above from weight alone.

The norm for historical metal pricing. Extracting metals is hard work. Until the invention of the blast furnace, even iron likely cost as much for the metal as the smithwork - which is why you got a big discount if you supplied your own, and people still make a living collecting scrap. It has to be a pretty high tolerance or mission critical part before the craftsmanship vastly exceeds the price of the metal.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by tbone

You’ve got a weapon that benefits from Weapon Bond or Weapon Master, but it breaks, leaving you with a half-weapon that's still functional but different (a staff from a broken polearm, a dagger from a broke smallsword, etc., per Exploits p. 56). Do you keep the benefits of the traits?

I agree for WM, but for WB I'd leave the bonus, because it's cool for a character to have a special bond with a fragment of their broken bonded weapon. "This broken thing is still special to me?" Oh yeah, give me more of that.

Signature Gear = unbreakable?

Signature Gear "insures” a weapon "against the vagaries of adventuring". Further description only details loss and theft, though. What about normal breakage due to parrying a heavy weapon, an attack on the weapon by a foe, etc.? Is the Signature Gear weapon as vulnerable as any other to this breakage, or is it effectively immune?

I handle this similarly to Ghost Shirt. The weapon is more or less immune to random mayhem but in a fight it is just a weapon.

Parrying atlatl-ed spears

Atlatls are clearly Special Badass weapons so you get NO defenses. At all.

Dwarven whetstone and arrows
... If a PC archer has a dwarven whetstone, and can reasonably spend 1 minute per arrow on sharpening (simple enough, especially while in town), then it’s only fair to assume that all of the PC’s arrows get +1 damage.

This is legit, but I generally require the edges of DWed weapons to be protected. Either get a special quiver or put little protective covers on the points. You can also DW right before combat. In any case these are only small penalties or inconveniences so the DW is well worth it.

I think the main limit is that most scouts go for the cornucopia quiver pretty quick, and you can't really DW those.

The question: Is the above a reasonable approach to pricing silver/meteoric bullets, pellets, etc.? Has anyone already tackled pricing these?

As others have noted, the CF system has issues. "Minimum base cost is the cost of materials+cost of craftsmanship" is a good hack at the lower end.