Question: Using D20 Stats with GURPS Character Creation

[Elliander]

I am starting a new campaign where, for the setting I designed, we have decided to use GURPS as the base for overall Character creation, but we are going to be needing to use the base stats that are used in D&D. We are also going to be using a Spell Point system, a D20 Magic system, and we are going to be using a Shadowrun Movement point system.

With the exception of NPCs that I will be creating, the vast majority of monsters will be using Pathfinder stats which is why, for simplicity, I will want all of the players to have comparable stats.

So here's my basic question: How do D20 stats convert to Gurps stats in regards to character creation? From what I can tell, in Gurps, players choose their stats instead of roll them. Is there even a point at which characters "level up"? (and in that regards, how would I use a D20 spell system without having levels as a base line, unless players also choose caster level with points as well?) If I convert the stat function and use GURPS stat costs, what is the base line for figuring out what level the characters are to select an appropriate D20 opponent?

From what I can tell:

ST = Strength
DX = Dexterity
IQ = Intelligence
HT = Constitution
WILL = Wisdom
Per = Perception = a D&D Skill
FP = Fatigue = Non-existent in D&D

And Charisma appears to be non-existent in Gurps?

[Kalzazz]

Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence are all bundled tidily into GURPS IQ

ST in GURPS is Str and Con both, with HT also based off Con

DX in GURPS is Str and Dex (DnD Str is needed for melee to hit, a very key part of GURPS DX)

[Elliander]

Well that complicates matters quite a bit, since various advantages specifically seem to target stats.

Since the campaign hasn't even started yet there must be some simple way to handle the conversion.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Elliander

I am starting a new campaign where, for the setting I designed, we have decided to use GURPS as the base for overall Character creation, but we are going to be needing to use the base stats that are used in D&D. We are also going to be using a Spell Point system, a D20 Magic system, and we are going to be using a Shadowrun Movement point system.

With the exception of NPCs that I will be creating, the vast majority of monsters will be using Pathfinder stats which is why, for simplicity, I will want all of the players to have comparable stats.

So here's my basic question: How do D20 stats convert to Gurps stats in regards to character creation?

Poorly. It's not clear to me why you're not using the Pathfinder character generation system, as GURPS character sheets are likely to be quite difficult to accurately convert over to compatibility with Pathfinder rules.

From what I can tell, in Gurps, players choose their stats instead of roll them. Is there even a point at which characters "level up"?

No. GURPS is a point-buy system, which means that initial stats, skills, etc. are purchased from an initial pool of points. When more points are handed out (experience points), they can be spent to improve existing abilities or buy new ones, within the limits of the setting (e.g. in a D&D type setting, you probably can't spend your points on Pilot: X-wing fighter).

(and in that regards, how would I use a D20 spell system without having levels as a base line, unless players also choose caster level with points as well?)

I suppose you could change the prerequisite system, divide the GURPS spell list into 'spell levels' instead, and rule that you need X number of spells from the previous level before you can buy spells of the next level up. In most GURPS magic systems, spells are treated like skills, or based on skills, although you can build them as sets of advantages too (this takes a lot of work).

If I convert the stat function and use GURPS stat costs, what is the base line for figuring out what level the characters are to select an appropriate D20 opponent?

Popular figures from previous discussion tend to go round 100-200 points for first level, +25-50 points per additional level, but Pathfinder style Challenge Ratings don't really convert.

From what I can tell:

ST = Strength
DX = Dexterity
IQ = Intelligence
HT = Constitution
WILL = Wisdom
Per = Perception = a D&D Skill
FP = Fatigue = Non-existent in D&D

And Charisma appears to be non-existent in Gurps?

I'd convert slightly differently to Kalzazz, which just points up the difficulties involved.
ST= A mixture of Str and Con; ST determines lift, damage, and hitpoints
DX= A mixture of Str and Dex: DX affects your Dodge and your ability to learn and use weapon skills, and your speed.
IQ= Int, pretty much straight across. Affects your ability to learn and use spells and mental skills. No bonus languages, buy languages as usual.
HT= part of Con+ some other things. HT governs endurance, ability to resist poisons, drugs and environmental extremes, and also to survive extreme injury. HT also affects your Basic Speed and hence Dodge.
Will= A part of Wis; governs ability to resist interrogation, mental attacks, etc. Also the basis of some related skills.
Per= part of Wis; the governing attribute of skills that take the place of the Pathfinder skill Perception, and what you roll against to notice things when you haven't got a relevant skill
Charisma is an advantage in GURPS rather than an attribute. Purchasing it improves NPC reactions, but doesn't come with any of the other associated traits from Pathfinder (followers, bardic magic, etc.)
FP: Pathfinder doesn't really track this, although it would be equivalent to Magic Points if you're using the default GURPS Magic system.

[Kalzazz]

Id consider DnD Cha to be part of GURPS IQ, since its baseline stat off which social skills are come up with mostly

Though, you then wind up having the Cleric, Sorceror, and Wizard (who need 1 of the 3 parts of IQ) having middling IQ, but then you need to buy them Magery or PI

As a note,

I use RPM Magic for Wizards and Clerics, and Magic Magic for Sorcerors more or less

[Elliander]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Poorly. It's not clear to me why you're not using the Pathfinder character generation system, as GURPS character sheets are likely to be quite difficult to accurately convert over to compatibility with Pathfinder rules.

We are not going to be using traditional classes, but we will be using some mechanics based on Pathfinder. Believe it or not, this is actually the simplest approach I can come up with for what the players want to be doing.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

No. GURPS is a point-buy system, which means that initial stats, skills, etc. are purchased from an initial pool of points. When more points are handed out (experience points), they can be spent to improve existing abilities or buy new ones, within the limits of the setting (e.g. in a D&D type setting, you probably can't spend your points on Pilot: X-wing fighter).

Are the players normally restricted on what they can spend points on after initial creation? For example, after building their stats, can they spend new points on stats at any time?

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I suppose you could change the prerequisite system, divide the GURPS spell list into 'spell levels' instead, and rule that you need X number of spells from the previous level before you can buy spells of the next level up. In most GURPS magic systems, spells are treated like skills, or based on skills, although you can build them as sets of advantages too (this takes a lot of work).

Actually, in my campaign spells will come from items, with spell points based on Intelligence and/or Wisdom, but caster levels are determined by character level usually. If that's the way it works it might just be simpler to give a cost to increasing caster level manually, but my only concern with that is giving players access to spells that are too strong too soon.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Popular figures from previous discussion tend to go round 100-200 points for first level, +25-50 points per additional level, but Pathfinder style Challenge Ratings don't really convert.

So, in theory, would a 250 point character be equivalent to a level 2 Pathfinder Character? In which case that could be caster level 2, but what challenge rating of a monster would be appropriate if it doesn't really convert?

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'd convert slightly differently to Kalzazz, which just points up the difficulties involved.
ST= A mixture of Str and Con; ST determines lift, damage, and hitpoints
DX= A mixture of Str and Dex: DX affects your Dodge and your ability to learn and use weapon skills, and your speed.
IQ= Int, pretty much straight across. Affects your ability to learn and use spells and mental skills. No bonus languages, buy languages as usual.
HT= part of Con+ some other things. HT governs endurance, ability to resist poisons, drugs and environmental extremes, and also to survive extreme injury. HT also affects your Basic Speed and hence Dodge.
Will= A part of Wis; governs ability to resist interrogation, mental attacks, etc. Also the basis of some related skills.
Per= part of Wis; the governing attribute of skills that take the place of the Pathfinder skill Perception, and what you roll against to notice things when you haven't got a relevant skill
Charisma is an advantage in GURPS rather than an attribute. Purchasing it improves NPC reactions, but doesn't come with any of the other associated traits from Pathfinder (followers, bardic magic, etc.)
FP: Pathfinder doesn't really track this, although it would be equivalent to Magic Points if you're using the default GURPS Magic system.

It's the "mixture" stats that confuse me. Remember, the characters have not yet been created yet. This isn't something as complex as converting an existing character, I need to modify the character sheets and let the players know the cost of each modified stat and what happens when an Advantage gives them a bonus or a reduction to one of the named stats.

For example, suppose an advantage gave the players a bonus to ST, which would I apply that to? Strength or Constitution?

For Charisma that makes it a bit easier, because I can give them a Charisma stat and not worry about abilities that may increase it.

[Anders]

Screw it!

Create the characters and then convert them to get the real feeling of the character. You're not going to get an exact conversion anyway, so you might as well convert what's important - the character.

[Elliander]

Originally Posted by Anders

Screw it!

Create the characters and then convert them to get the real feeling of the character. You're not going to get an exact conversion anyway, so you might as well convert what's important - the character.

Exact conversions are not as important as game balance. Its OK if a stat conversion isnt perfect as long as the game balances out. As long as I can present the characters with reasonable challenges. Besides, by your suggestion I would still need to do the same thing anyway: convert stats, and if I went further I would lose what I hope to gain by adapting GURPS mechanics.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Elliander

We are not going to be using traditional classes, but we will be using some mechanics based on Pathfinder. Believe it or not, this is actually the simplest approach I can come up with for what the players want to be doing.

Hmmm. If it helps, Jurgen's been curating a huge list of conversions of D20 creatures into GURPS

Are the players normally restricted on what they can spend points on after initial creation? For example, after building their stats, can they spend new points on stats at any time?

That's mostly up to the GM; generally speaking, attributes and skills can be improved as points come available, getting new skills requires some opportunity to learn them, and advantages vary, depending on the advantage. Combat Reflexes can be added after character creation; Extra Arms usually can't (barring a setting with certain kinds of cybernetics or magic).

Actually, in my campaign spells will come from items, with spell points based on Intelligence and/or Wisdom, but caster levels are determined by character level usually.

I'm not at all certain how to best model that with GURPS, I'd need more details about what you mean by spells coming from items.

If that's the way it works it might just be simpler to give a cost to increasing caster level manually, but my only concern with that is giving players access to spells that are too strong too soon.

In GURPS that would be an Unusual Background, with a leveled cost for access to more powerful spells.

So, in theory, would a 250 point character be equivalent to a level 2 Pathfinder Character? In which case that could be caster level 2, but what challenge rating of a monster would be appropriate if it doesn't really convert?

That's the thing, GURPS point values don't translate automatically into combat ability the way Pathfinder levels do. A character who's spent 250 points on social traits and knowledge skills can be brutally killed by a 25 point kobold (CR <1), while a 250 point DF Knight can wade through a few dozen without suffering a scratch.

It's the "mixture" stats that confuse me. Remember, the characters have not yet been created yet. This isn't something as complex as converting an existing character, I need to modify the character sheets and let the players know the cost of each modified stat and what happens when an Advantage gives them a bonus or a reduction to one of the named stats.

What do you mean by Advantage in this context? GURPS Advantages are entirely separate from Attributes and don't offer bonuses or penalties to them.

[Elliander]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

That's mostly up to the GM; generally speaking, attributes and skills can be improved as points come available, getting new skills requires some opportunity to learn them, and advantages vary, depending on the advantage. Combat Reflexes can be added after character creation; Extra Arms usually can't (barring a setting with certain kinds of cybernetics or magic).

I'm the GM ;) I'm just not as familiar with GURPS. That explanation does make sense though.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'm not at all certain how to best model that with GURPS, I'd need more details about what you mean by spells coming from items.

OK, well here's the basic scenario I came up with. An alien city modeled after Midgar in FF7 lands on an island in the "Pirates & Dragons" world. They are Tech Level 10, while the surrounding world is Tech Level 4. The players begin as part of this city as the alien invaders, but there are internal social conflicts as well resulting in a campaign that has Urban Warefare, Ship/Airship Battles, Tank Battles, Conquests, Dungeon Crawls, and Battles with Monsters. Because it's modeled after a FF7 city we decided it would be interesting to use a system modeled after "Materia" and we decided to model it after a combination of spells from "Spheres of Power" and "Shadowrun 3e". Each Materia has it's own experience that unlocks higher levels of the spells, weapons are modified to have Materia slots, etc. Because Magic will essentially be something embedded into weapons there is very little reason for anyone to specialize in a spell caster, and given the varied backgrounds the players wanted to use I felt that a system of Advantages/Disadvantages would suit it well.

I will be creating the vast majority of NPC's myself for use within the city, but the surrounding world is populated by a variety of characters that will only have stats for D100 and D20 rules listed.

It really isn't a problem if I combine WIS/INT into IQ for the purposes of casting spells, but I wanted to make sure that whatever happens the game has balance.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

In GURPS that would be an Unusual Background, with a leveled cost for access to more powerful spells.

That's a good idea.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

That's the thing, GURPS point values don't translate automatically into combat ability the way Pathfinder levels do. A character who's spent 250 points on social traits and knowledge skills can be brutally killed by a 25 point kobold (CR <1), while a 250 point DF Knight can wade through a few dozen without suffering a scratch.

Ya, I'm starting to see that. I suppose I could only look at just the party's combined combat points to determine the party's collective combat rating, but it's still going to be an issue of figuring out that base line.

Originally Posted by Dalillama

What do you mean by Advantage in this context? GURPS Advantages are entirely separate from Attributes and don't offer bonuses or penalties to them.

Well, I am referring to any Advantage or Disadvantage that specifically mentions and/or targets a stat in any meaningful way. That includes being affected by stats.