New Reality Seeds

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

A war between Spain and Britain in the Mississippi and Ohio valleys in the 1780-1790's would be an interesting and highly complex campaign. Likely to be nasty on both Native-Americans and the USA.

Intriguing, and I can see both sides using native auxiliaries so things might not be as bad for them as one might expect. The USA would either need to create a standing army or be raided by both sides, I'd expect.

How would it come about, though? If I recall correctly, Spain and Britain were allied against France at the time (I think) - something would have to happen in Europe to change that.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by robkelk

How would it come about, though? If I recall correctly, Spain and Britain were allied against France at the time (I think) - something would have to happen in Europe to change that.

True, both Spain and Britain feared France in this period. However, Spain and Britain disliked and feared each other. Spain had the better case for fearing Britain's rapacity. France, Spain, and Britain, all wanted control of the Mississippi Valley and the Great Lakes region. If France seemed weaker or less of a threat in this period, perhaps Napoleon has a really tough political rival and infighting keeps France weak, then Spain and Britain might focus more on each other.

This politcal set up could make the war more complecated and less deadly to the USA. Just have Napoleon remove his rival and become dictator of France suddenly. Napoleon could then side with whoever was losing or attempt to. France suddenly more powerful would force Spain and Britain to change focus. This could give the USA breathing room. Or, if the losing side was foolish enough, get Napoleon's armies safely on US soil.

Hey, let Washington live a few years longer and face-off against Napoleon. In the Mississippi valley of the 1790's Washington, though the weaker general by far, would have the edge over Napoleon.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by robkelk

How would it come about, though? If I recall correctly, Spain and Britain were allied against France at the time (I think) - something would have to happen in Europe to change that.

Originally Posted by Astromancer

True, both Spain and Britain feared France in this period. However, Spain and Britain disliked and feared each other. Spain had the better case for fearing Britain's rapacity. France, Spain, and Britain, all wanted control of the Mississippi Valley and the Great Lakes region. If France seemed weaker or less of a threat in this period, perhaps Napoleon has a really tough political rival and infighting keeps France weak, then Spain and Britain might focus more on each other.

This political set up could make the war more complicated and less deadly to the USA. Just have Napoleon remove his rival and become dictator of France suddenly. Napoleon could then side with whoever was losing or attempt to. France suddenly more powerful would force Spain and Britain to change focus. This could give the USA breathing room. Or, if the losing side was foolish enough, get Napoleon's armies safely on US soil.

Sorry, you both seem to be thinking of events roughly twenty years later. Spain was a French ally up until Napoleon's invasion of Spain. The USA was able to purchase Louisiana because Spain had received possession of it as compensation for territories lost while supporting France. The Napoleonic Wars don't begin until 1803 and this is for the period 1780-1799 [roughly speaking].

Spanish policy regarding the Indians won't be doing themselves any favours. British policy will be seen as somewhat more acceptable and American actions (as opposed to policy) aren't going to win any converts either. It could turn into a four-way struggle: Spain vs. Britain (with Indian allies) vs. USA (possibly with some Indian allies) vs. Indians (possibly including the allied Indians of both Britain and the USA).

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

Spanish policy regarding the Indians won't be doing themselves any favours. British policy will be seen as somewhat more acceptable and American actions (as opposed to policy) aren't going to win any converts either. It could turn into a four-way struggle: Spain vs. Britain (with Indian allies) vs. USA (possibly with some Indian allies) vs. Indians (possibly including the allied Indians of both Britain and the USA).

That would make for a nasty scary war. When the French situation called Spain and maybe Britain out of the mix, the USA would still have a nasty fight on its hands.

You could have interesting adventures looking for the best road to Santa Fe. According to a history of the period I'm reading now, Spain was terrified that the USA would find an easy route to Santa Fe and thus take the high road both to Mexico's silver mines in Chihuahua and then march to Mexico City. Actions that would break the back of Spain's empire.

Finding the route with General Wilkinson both aiding your exploration and selling you out to Spain at the same time would be extra fun.

[patchwork]

Here's a pair for you based on everybody's favorite mad scientist:

Kaiserreich-5 diverged in 1874 when Nikola Tesla did not evade the draft into the Austro-Hungarian Army, finds the structure useful for keeping himself on task, and luckily gets a CO who has some idea how to use the lad. The Austrians have small, reliable radios, remotely controlled torpedos and Tesla siege oscillators kept quietly under wraps even after Tesla's retirement from uniformed service in 1909; the world is shocked when they put down first Russia, then France while covering the Turk in WWI. In the interwar, Tesla creates radio controlled VTOL aircraft (drones) and RADAR, again kept secret, and bickers with young Austrians with names like Einstein and Pauli and Hunyadi. Maybe he makes particle beam weapons too, it's hard to say. Syndicalist Russia and France eventually want a rematch, and are again surprised by the extent of Austria-Hungary's air superiority.

India fights its way out of the British Empire during the interwar, but doesn't really have the "secular" thing down yet, and winds up partnering with the Ottomans. China is a cheerfully corrupt capitalist republic, allied with the other major cheerfully corrupt capitalist republic, the USA. And then there's the successors of the French and Russian Empires, committed to world syndicalism via Tesla oscillators leveling inconvenient cities.

For added fun, maybe a more disciplined and coherent Tesla finds promise in young Einstein's "Einstein-Rosen bridges" and starts tinkering with the concept. Put Kaiserreich-5 on Quantum 3 or 4 and...let the Empire have figured out how to create stable bridges and begin exploring other worldlines...

Alternatively, consider Igor-3. Tesla evades the draft but falls in with some bad influences during his dark period around 1880, and starts building many of the same devices not for the state but for the Black Hand and similar parties. WWI seems to be off to the same beginning but then, the Hand levels Vienna when it becomes clear their demands will not be met. They may loan a few devices to that Lenin chap next. A world forced to leap directly from the days of Empire to the phase where advanced technologies and possibly WMD are in private, clandestine, mentally unstable hands.

[patchwork]

Don't have a cute name for this one, but another interesting possibility: Crown Prince Wilhelm wanted to stand for Reichspraesident in 1932, but his father forbade him. If old Bill has a stroke, brain transplant, has stopped speaking to his son entirely, or something similar, then...fair odds the Prince becomes the President. And he appoints von Schleicher, not Hitler, as his Chancellor. President Hohenzollern is not a pleasant piece of work, but he's better than some alternatives, especially since he's willing to give up a lot in order to get the monarchy restored...

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by patchwork

Don't have a cute name for this one, but another interesting possibility: Crown Prince Wilhelm wanted to stand for Reichspraesident in 1932, but his father forbade him. If old Bill has a stroke, brain transplant, has stopped speaking to his son entirely, or something similar, then...fair odds the Prince becomes the President. And he appoints von Schleicher, not Hitler, as his Chancellor. President Hohenzollern is not a pleasant piece of work, but he's better than some alternatives, especially since he's willing to give up a lot in order to get the monarchy restored...

This is an interesting alternative. I'd use the Kaiserreich tag for it. Not fully accurate but useful.

[Astromancer]

Try this idea.

Western Antarctica collapses in 1991. This would entail the ice shelves breaking up, the sea waves beating out ice caves, the over hanging ice falling into the sea, and the submerged ice bobbing up. Then the currents take all the ices away and the cycle repeats. Theoretically this could put enough ice into the sea to raise sea level by twenty feet. Eastern Antarctica has a different geography.

The importance of this senario is that it could "realistically," for a given value of "realistic," raise sea-level 20 feet in as many years. I could see populations blame the conservative widely in power at the time, folks like Clinton come in with big change because we're in an emergency mandate, and conservatives, because they were deticated to attacking Clinton in America, and Liberals and social democrats elsewhere, getting seen as disloyal and self-seeking.

Global Warming would be taken far more seriously. Large populations would be displaced. Both conservatives and the far left would become radicallised and probably violent. It could be an interesting world.

[Anders]

The Book of Revelations almost didn't make it into the Bible because too many thought it read like the ravings of a lunatic. Considering the effect that book has had on culture, imagine if it had been an apocryphal text...

[Flyndaran]

Originally Posted by Anders

The Book of Revelations almost didn't make it into the Bible because too many thought it read like the ravings of a lunatic. Considering the effect that book has had on culture, imagine if it had been an apocryphal text...

Or if one of the others got left out. Imagine cutting Job with its message of bad things happening to good people for "reasons" not quite fitting with the other books.