New Reality Seeds

[fchase8]

The Germany-wins-WWI idea is in Dixie, though obviously on that parallel it is the side-effect of a change. But it does have a fascist de Gaulle leading France to fight Germany again (and lose again). Even if Dixie doesn't have the right divergence point, it has a good description of Kaiser-ruled Europe.

There is also a horror parallel, Kaisereich, where Germany won WWI because of superior, quasi-mystical automation.



What about a world where WWI never happened? Archduke Franz Ferdinand was actually something of a liberal, I believe (at least for a Hapsburg monarch), and the Social Democratic Party in Germany was close to winning power. Keep the archduke alive, and by 1916 the emperor dies, putting him on the throne; meanwhile, Social Democrats could achieve electoral victory in Germany, and start to take power from the Kaiser.

It still seems like the nationalist push of the era would eventually bring about war. But maybe the archaic institutions of monarchy and even colonialism could creak loudly, and so instead of focusing on conquering each other, the nations of Europe would be more worried about their own people rising up (and/or their colonies).

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by fchase8

It still seems like the nationalist push of the era would eventually bring about war. But maybe the archaic institutions of monarchy and even colonialism could creak loudly, and so instead of focusing on conquering each other, the nations of Europe would be more worried about their own people rising up (and/or their colonies).

I'd still expect one or more major European wars out of that. All it takes is one power supports a current government and another a revolutionary or independence movement and it's on. And even if they stay out, as soon as any empire actually does fall apart everybody else goes to war over who gets the pieces.

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd still expect one or more major European wars out of that. All it takes is one power supports a current government and another a revolutionary or independence movement and it's on. And even if they stay out, as soon as any empire actually does fall apart everybody else goes to war over who gets the pieces.

Right before World War I, there were the Balkan Wars where Ottoman Turkey fell apart in Europe, and though it was indigenous states that emerged, the major powers were certainly involved (and that was when Austro-Hungary took Bosnia, including Sarajevo, which would soon start WWI).

So yeah, war in Europe does seem inevitable. But maybe it would be more like the Balkan Wars (there were two, I believe), where a ramshackle state falls apart (Austro-Hungary or Russia) and the great powers act more through proxies.

But given the secret commitments to Austria & Russia by the other powers, revolution in either country might still have led to a Western Front between Germany & France.


What about revolutions in both? If both were falling apart, would Germany & France rush to go to war with each other, or focus more on what was going on in those states. Germany, for one, might not rush to invade to the west if there was chaos across its south & east. If Russia was in chaos, German leadership might not have been as obsessed with knocking out France before the might of Russia could come to bear.

[patchwork]

I've been reading about Jeanne de Clisson, and thinking about a world in which her wildest dreams come true. She was at Crecy in 1346 as part of the Breton contingent; historically, Phillip VI "the Fortunate" was wounded but got away. Suppose Jeanne manages to run him down? A King of France is going to be killed by a woman. Slowly. His mutilated body laid out on display like a common criminal. And she may keep a part or two as trophies. That will probably alienate Edward III, as he cannot negotiate a treaty with a mutilated corpse, but we all have our problems, and anyway Jeanne can go home and retire happy now.

Jean II is 27, and raises another army to head north to avenge his father, unwisely trying to break the subsequent siege of Calais; Edward captures him easily enough (Phillip brought out the army but decided not to give battle; angered by his father's execution, Jean is not so rational). Hey, this one can negotiate. But at this point, does Edward want to? Jean's son Charles is 8, and everyone dreads a regency. He believes God vindicated his claim to the French throne at Crecy. The Constable of France is also his prisoner, from Caen. If Jean won't do homage to Edward as King of France (Jean being Duke of Normandy in this capacity), perhaps give Jean to that de Clisson woman and go take Paris? Well, that's a hollow threat, but I can imagine Jean spending much of his life in the Tower of London after this, with neither willing to acknowledge the other's claims.

A negotiation is at least as interesting and likely; Edward would likely settle for, oh, 18 boatloads of money and Jean acknowledging Edward Balliol as King of Scotland. With all that money, Edward can pay his Italian creditors, which means no financial collapse allowing the Medicis to rise. France will be too broke to buy Dauphine; who gets it? Burgundy? Avignon? Savoy? I like Avignon, sets up a large Papal State in southeastern France, nobody can afford to buy it so Humbert leaves it to the Church. That puts Scotland in the English orbit early, with France having abandoned the Bruces.

The biggest fallout, though, is the (possibly mortal) blow to the interpretation of Salic Law which says women cannot pass claims and only male-to-male succession is valid. That theory was advanced for the first time only 10 years before Crecy, and was the basis for declaring Phillip and not Edward King of France. Phillip, the male-to-male candidate, killed in battle by a woman ostensibly allied to the female-line claimant, his son being captured only months after, really, really ought to consign that idea to the rubbish bin. Either way the negotiations go, we get a France out of this that acknowledges female property rights.

Then the Black Death hits and scrambles everything.

It has potential, I think, because Centrum will like the idea of uniting England and France (and Scotland) under a regime that treats (noble) women a little better than the historical one did. Can have an Infinity team thus at the negotiations backing the "cash and Balliol" option, but forced to string it along so that frustrated Centrans don't just kill Jean and take their chances that way.

I'd be curious to see what either option looks like once the Renaissance really gets going.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by malloyd

Can that level of religious faith even *still exist* in a civilization with crosstime travel? Things would be bad enough in a setting with realistic physics and a synchronized now - simply because of the variant texts and religiously important events that came out differently. In a setting where there are retarded histories and supernatural physics that will let you go talk to historical religious figures or actual gods, a battle that came out wrong isn't the problem, it's the guys who went shot video of Muhammad sacrificing to the Moon God, going into a trance, glowing with a silvery light and speaking prophetic poetry....

Showing that video online could really get blood spilt. But then, going to the world where Jesus and St. John were lovers and getting that video would lead to excess excitement too.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by scc

Been playing around with an idea that plays off of the base idea here. In the English Civil War, King Charles I in an attempt to invalidate some of the moves of the English Parliament create/calls for an Irish one, figuring that two parliaments (Irish and Scottish) can overrule a third (English), weather or not it works in the short term, the long term outcomes are interesting. With the Restoration you would have the British Empire being an actual empire, likely with the power of (the English) Parliament curtailed.

Ireland and Scotland did have Parliaments. They got folded into the one in London.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by fchase8

The Germany-wins-WWI idea is in Dixie, though obviously on that parallel it is the side-effect of a change. But it does have a fascist de Gaulle leading France to fight Germany again (and lose again). Even if Dixie doesn't have the right divergence point, it has a good description of Kaiser-ruled Europe.

There is also a horror parallel, Kaisereich, where Germany won WWI because of superior, quasi-mystical automation.



What about a world where WWI never happened? Archduke Franz Ferdinand was actually something of a liberal, I believe (at least for a Hapsburg monarch), and the Social Democratic Party in Germany was close to winning power. Keep the archduke alive, and by 1916 the emperor dies, putting him on the throne; meanwhile, Social Democrats could achieve electoral victory in Germany, and start to take power from the Kaiser.

It still seems like the nationalist push of the era would eventually bring about war. But maybe the archaic institutions of monarchy and even colonialism could creak loudly, and so instead of focusing on conquering each other, the nations of Europe would be more worried about their own people rising up (and/or their colonies).

It could be a good world to adventure in. Read Moorcock's Warlord of the Air which is set in a world were WWI never happens. In many ways Lucifer-5 is also a similar thing but still very different. Read The Riddle of the Sands by Erskine Childers, a very good pre-WWI spy novel for ideas. John Buchan's works would also give you loots of good ideas even thought they are all post WWI.

[PTTG]

Aquarius:

Syncretic "new age" philosophy has measurable effect in this worldline. Apparently, something to do with the ozmic matrix of this timeline results in a unique ideogramic spectra here. Normal magical workings treat this worldline as no-mana, but new age philosophical workings drawing from many traditions DO work, and are comparable to the effects of High Mana.

Since people have been combining mystisms since at least the iron age, it's not clear why the first signs of workings date back to only the 1890s. Even then, the Order of the Golden Dawn only saw minescule effects, if any.

It wasn't until the 1970s (Present Time 1977) that New Age magic came to the fore; some suspect that the Nazis might have had magic (they did not), or that the communists are kidnapping magic workers to find out how real the phenomenon is (they are). Of course, a solid half of the population of the west believes the whole thing to be smoke an mirrors, but as more and more New Age practitioners introduce new workings, it's becoming more and more accepted.

[robkelk]

Originally Posted by PTTG

Aquarius:

Syncretic "new age" philosophy has measurable effect in this worldline. Apparently, something to do with the ozmic matrix of this timeline results in a unique ideogramic spectra here. Normal magical workings treat this worldline as no-mana, but new age philosophical workings drawing from many traditions DO work, and are comparable to the effects of High Mana.

Since people have been combining mystisms since at least the iron age, it's not clear why the first signs of workings date back to only the 1890s. Even then, the Order of the Golden Dawn only saw minescule effects, if any.

It wasn't until the 1970s (Present Time 1977) that New Age magic came to the fore; some suspect that the Nazis might have had magic (they did not), or that the communists are kidnapping magic workers to find out how real the phenomenon is (they are). Of course, a solid half of the population of the west believes the whole thing to be smoke an mirrors, but as more and more New Age practitioners introduce new workings, it's becoming more and more accepted.

What does and doesn't work? Are razor blades sharpened by keeping them in pyramid cases? Does folk rock have powers to change men's minds? Are love and lust the same thing?

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by robkelk

What does and doesn't work? Are razor blades sharpened by keeping them in pyramid cases? Does folk rock have powers to change men's minds? Are love and lust the same thing?

Can you make the Pentagon levitate and turn orange? OK, that was 1967, but it was a new agey thing that they did try; it was intended to end the war in Viet Nam, despite the fact that the President and Congress were the ones who made those decisions. With magic now clearly working, I could see them trying again, if it was before the US withdrew.