New Reality Seeds

[fchase8]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

According to the book I'm reading now, history in the modern sense is an invention of the Renaissance. That would put I long after the divergence point. classical histories are often about moral examples rather than attempts to accurately describe past events.

Given Centrum's history, their historical tradition might be largely a branch of Rhetoric all about using the past as ennobling examples. They would have had to come up with some kind of analysis of history, but it could easily be radically unlike anything Homeline would see as serous history. In fact Homelines whole tradition of academic History could easily be a prime target of centrum agents.

I know in Roman history, the surviving histories of an emperor were usually the ones written under the next emperor, who generally wanted to make his predecessor look bad. There wasn't this idea of 'impartial observer'.

That could have easily continued in the Anglo-French Empire, with historians judging prior kings/emperors (which would be how they would delineate time periods) in relation to the politics of the day - make the prior king/emperor look bad, or revise to positive the record of a past ruler that the current one liked.

And then when Centrum came along, historical research was essentially abandoned in favor of, 'They were all bad and led to the Last War.'


Interestingly, while Centrum wouldn't have Homeline's developed historical approach, it also wouldn't have the developed biases, either. They might actually be more impartial because they would be a 'blank slate'.

For instance, our own history of exploration and colonialism is riven by dealing with the impressive accomplishments dead white males did while causing great suffering, for Centrum it would just be matter-of-fact. Centrum wouldn't debate whether someone like a slave-holding Founding Father was 'good' or 'bad' - just whether or not he was important.

Originally Posted by PTTG

Well, seeing as the GURPS sourcebook for hacking actually resulted in a raid on Steve Jackson Games, I'd say people definitely did believe that. I'd imagine that it depends on what game you're playing. If you're playing Doom and similar "murder simulators," then the demon-gifted abilities would be tactical in nature. If you're playing a tabletop wargame (not sure what was available in '88), then you get strategic ability. And while the flashy stuff comes from cultists who join to play as wizards (and who get real magic), barbarian warriors also get insane combat abilities with swords and such... even if they're a 98-pound teenager with asthma.

Something to be said for that. In fact, even the cultists themselves could be convinced that their "magical" abilities come from "faith."

Elaborating on the idea, what if there are several spiritual forces attempting to raise power in a contemporary mortal world? We get a sort of wainscot fantasy where heroes and villains alike are following esoteric rules and planting symbols and signs to channel mana to their lords.

It might involve tapping into ley lines, or finding important places and adding subtle runes to lock the mana of the place to your faction. In such a setting, a church very well could fall under the sway of an evil spirit, and likewise a nature spirit that is ethically neutral might court an alliance with Greenpeace.

Heck, considering that spirits have limited resources and interesting powers, they might be PCs, influencing and manipulating their followers, taking power from sacrifices and feeding it out carefully to trusted avatars...

EDIT: Hmmm... symbols and signs could use something like the speed-range table... a tiny icon on a product in tens of thousands of homes could be as powerful as arranging the streets of a major metropolis into pentagonal shapes. Artifacts of eons ago may be power crystals charged with the karmic power of ancient deities, potentially tappable, but perhaps dangerous, too.

I like the idea of RPGers gaining abilities, and facing off against bible-thumpers.

But what powers would a GM in this world get?

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by fchase8

I like the idea of RPGers gaining abilities, and facing off against bible-thumpers.

But what powers would a GM in this world get?

In this case, GMs are local cult leaders- ex-players who want to indoctrinate more vulnerable minds.

[somecallmetim]

Originally Posted by PTTG

Let's throw out all that philosophical garbage and have a setting where RPGs are literally a recruitment tool of Satan! Video games, too, of course. And since we're at it, Pot was the devil's tobacco all along!
...
I'm off to find a tongue depressor to see if I can work it out of my cheek.

Though it's for In Nomine, not IW, I am reminded of this set of campaign variants.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by fchase8

What if the aliens needed something biological? That would a lot harder to find in space than minerals, and Earth would be the perfect/only place for it.

It could even be something as basic as needing labor.



This is the one where the aliens trade with the Americans?



I like the idea of staying away from nuclear power states. Nuclear weapons would be the one thing the aliens would fear from humans. Furthermore, they could stay away from China because of the civil war there - Brazil, South Africa, and India were all at peace, and hadn't been damaged by war (Burma aside).



This is a neat idea too, a variant of the aliens visiting America. In this timeline, Britain remains dominant, but also remains in the imperial role. Kind of like a cross between Gernsback and the Stormbomb Britain timeline from Pyramid. Britain and her allies still rule racist empires (segregation & colonialism are still around), suppressing socialist/communist & independence movements everywhere.



These could be different timelines with the same designation, numbered. Might I suggest "Roswell"?

The first timeline discovered, Roswell-1, would be where the aliens visited America - and that's why the initial Scouts named it "Roswell". Maybe this timeline is still in the fifties, only just after the visitation.

The second timeline, Roswell-2, could be the Brazil/South Africa/India timeline. Set in the sixties or seventies, there's a multipolar Cold War going on.

The third timeline, Roswell-3, would be the British one, set further in the future, after WWIII.

There would be different parachronic situations and adventures in each. Roswell-1 would be the straightforward 'steal alien tech', with both Infinity and Centrum competing on American military bases. Roswell-2 would be the 'who to back?' and 'avoid WWIII' timeline - Infinity would like democratic Brazil & America, while Centrum would be drawn to hierarchical South Africa & India (and both would be trying to reduce prejudice). Roswell-3 would have the most advanced alien tech, but also the hardest to steal, in overweening security states (with the neat twist of it being Britain) - meanwhile, Infinity would be trying to reform the British Empire, while Centrum would be trying to co-opt it.

Shoot - I thought I responded to this but I guess I messed up.

Great ideas here. Love the Roswell labeling.
I had the Gernsback vibe from all the timelines, to some extent. Roswell-3 the purest, with ultra tech and girl reporters. Roswell-2 would replace square jawed, blonde haired, blue eyed American heroes with square jawed, raven haired, brown eyed Brazilian heroes with Europo-American sidekicks. Roswell-1 might not be so bad, since there is still a lot of the cultural dynamic moving across the West.

I agree that Centrum would just love to get at Roswell-3's British Empire. English speaking, vast and united, and with all those wonderful alien toys.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

They had something they called History. It was primarily about worthy and unworthy moral examples. It involved the past, but it wasn't about the past. It was about examples for the present.

The idea of the quest for truth in and of itself is definitely from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. A version of it is basic to scientific reasoning, so some aspect of truth for truth's sake must have occurred in Centrum's history. But they just didn't apply it to History - obviously, if they were able to fight the nuclear wars that Homeline was able to avoid.

[tshiggins]

Originally Posted by Drifter

The idea of the quest for truth in and of itself is definitely from the Renaissance and the Enlightenment. A version of it is basic to scientific reasoning, so some aspect of truth for truth's sake must have occurred in Centrum's history. But they just didn't apply it to History - obviously, if they were able to fight the nuclear wars that Homeline was able to avoid.

The first person to engage in something that resembled historiography was Herodotus, who lived in the 5th Century BC. He didn't just copy what people told him, he did the best he could to validate the veracity of the claims by consulting multiple sources, sought primary sources, and visited historical sites to the extents he was able.

However, you are correct in that methodologies similar to those of Herodotus didn't really take hold until the Renaissance.

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by tshiggins

The first person to engage in something that resembled historiography was Herodotus, who lived in the 5th Century BC. He didn't just copy what people told him, he did the best he could to validate the veracity of the claims by consulting multiple sources, sought primary sources, and visited historical sites to the extents he was able.

However, you are correct in that methodologies similar to those of Herodotus didn't really take hold until the Renaissance.

Not a coincidence. The revival of latin as well as access to books carried by refugees out of Constantinople, including works by Herodotus, helped shape the Renaissance.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by fchase8

I know in Roman history, the surviving histories of an emperor were usually the ones written under the next emperor, who generally wanted to make his predecessor look bad. There wasn't this idea of 'impartial observer'.

That could have easily continued in the Anglo-French Empire, with historians judging prior kings/emperors (which would be how they would delineate time periods) in relation to the politics of the day - make the prior king/emperor look bad, or revise to positive the record of a past ruler that the current one liked.

And then when Centrum came along, historical research was essentially abandoned in favor of, 'They were all bad and led to the Last War.'


Interestingly, while Centrum wouldn't have Homeline's developed historical approach, it also wouldn't have the developed biases, either. They might actually be more impartial because they would be a 'blank slate'.

For instance, our own history of exploration and colonialism is riven by dealing with the impressive accomplishments dead white males did while causing great suffering, for Centrum it would just be matter-of-fact. Centrum wouldn't debate whether someone like a slave-holding Founding Father was 'good' or 'bad' - just whether or not he was important.

Two foes who can't understand what the other one is doing. that can get very scary very fast.

[Astromancer]

Try this thought, medieval Venice was a lively highly innovative place. A Cabalist who is from an early 19th century Venice, suffering the twin humiliations of lost of Republican Liberty and Austrian Imperial rule, decides to aide his home town in other parallels by giving the various Venices advanced, for the time period, technologies.

Example: A Venice facing the League of Cambrai might get TL5 rifles and cannon, and the metallurgical formulas to make more.

At any period from 800 to 1600 Venice is probably the most advanced manufacturing center in Europe. Just about any technology introduced in Venice would have a maximum chance of being widespread very quickly.

Venice, although not the sinister place of legend, was always very tricky to deal with. Agents from anywhere, even and alternative Venice would find they couldn't pass as part of the society and that the people of Venice are profoundly loyal to their home town.

[Prince Charon]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Venice, although not the sinister place of legend, was always very tricky to deal with. Agents from anywhere, even and alternative Venice would find they couldn't pass as part of the society and that the people of Venice are profoundly loyal to their home town.

On the bright side, if you don't try to pretend to be local, and just act the part of a foreigner with something to sell, they're still a merchant town, and will likely be quick to see the benefits of, for example, a French 75, or a mitrailleuse. You just have to remember to charge enough to be believable.

Likewise, if you go in as a foreigner looking to buy things, they're happy to sell. You just need to be careful about anything else that you're doing (like investigating where early 16th-century Venice got the mitrailleuses from).