New Reality Seeds

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

My timing was off. But killing Hitler early in the War is a big plus for Germany.

Depends on just when. He gambled and won against professional advice a few times (Denmark, Norway, and France/Belgium/Netherlands). That meant most of the generals were quite happy about invading the USSR, and might well do it if Hitler dies between summer 1940 and spring 1941. If they did, and put their efforts into taking Moscow, they might have finished the Soviets by fall 1942, but nobody really knows for sure. If they did, they'd probably stop there.

After Stalingrad, removing Hitler means Germany conserves its forces better and gives up on territory it can't hold. And gets nuked in 1945.

[Astromancer]

Originally Posted by johndallman

After Stalingrad, removing Hitler means Germany conserves its forces better and gives up on territory it can't hold. And gets nuked in 1945.

Now that's an interesting alternative. Japan knows the USA has the A-Bomb and will use it. An the nuke is dropped in the middle of Europe, and is thus far scary to Russia. The A-Bomb is treated by many people as a war crime equal to the Holocaust (mainly by people who know very few real facts about the period). If the Bomb had been dropped on Berlin, European Anti-Americanism might have been too great to allow the formation of NATO.

The USSR would still collapse, mainly because Soviet style socialism (which does even seem socialist to me) was a rotten idea. A warmed over version of 17th French ideas about monarchical command economies disguised as radicalism, which is what the Soviet system was, had no chance of true longevity. Thus a Soviet conquest of Europe wouldn't automatically lead to a Soviet World Empire.

Post Soviet collapse Europe would be an interesting post-apocalyptic setting. Many punk tropes would be logically justified, much of the society would be like the film Jubilee. A dark and gritty setting for Noir adventures.

[Astromancer]

Many alternative Romes are super Romes. Why not a simply alien Rome?

A) The Romans and the Gauls might ally against Carthage. The Gauls had several technologies the Romans didn't have and a more sophisticated cartography, but anything would be better than the Roman maps. A moderately more advanced Rome could be a interesting near parallel.

B) Why not have Caligula actually move to Egypt slightly earlier than planed or simply go on a trip and never return. Caligula wanted to be worshiped as a god, the Egyptians would have given him this. There is evidence that Caligula's planed move to Egypt was the reason for his assassination. It would have stripped Rome's elites, including the Pretorian Guard, of all power.

But the real prize in moving Caligula to Egypt would be the rebuilding of ancient Pharonic canals between the Nile and the Red Sea. The increased trade and cultural links to the East, combined with an Egyptian center, would make for a very exotic Rome. great for adventures.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by Astromancer

Now that's an interesting alternative.

It's only an alternative in that Germany lasts long enough for nukes to be ready. The real-world plan was to use nuclear weapons on Germany, until it became clear in early '45 that Germany was unlikely to last long enough.

Japan knows the USA has the A-Bomb and will use it.

Yes, although it's impossible to predict their reaction with certainty. The course of events in Japan between Hiroshima and the surrender was quite complex; their scientists did realise quite quickly that it was an atomic bomb, and knew enough about the physics to understand what that meant and that they had no answer at all. The generals and admirals in the Cabinet were unwilling to admit defeat, and it took the Emperor's intervention to overcome the importance that their military code placed on defending the emperor's honour. They're likely to refuse to surrender until they are nuked too.

And the nuke is dropped in the middle of Europe, and is thus far more scary to Russia.

Not really, actually. Stalin knew about the project, and understood clearly that B-29s based in Europe could deliver them to the western areas of the USSR. He was fairly good at not showing fear.

The A-Bomb is treated by many people as a war crime equal to the Holocaust (mainly by people who know very few real facts about the period). If the Bomb had been dropped on Berlin, European Anti-Americanism might have been too great to allow the formation of NATO.

I think you're reading modern-day feelings back into the past. Most of Europe would have been quite happy about Germany getting nuked, and the bombs of the time were most effective when used as airbursts, so there was no concentrated fallout. The effect of a contemporary A-bomb is comparable to the bombing of Hamburg, and that wasn't an issue with the European powers that signed up to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1949.

What may make a difference is that there may not be a Berlin Air Lift, because if Berlin's taken a few nukes (it's a very widespread city) it may not be worthwhile for the Western Allies to demand their own zones within Berlin, and hence there's nothing there for the Soviets to start a crisis over. There will likely be some kind of political crisis before 1950, but there's no telling what it will be, and if it will spark the formation of NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in the final stages of the Berlin Air Lift, and NATO didn't become a substantial military alliance until the Korean War.

[PTTG]

An unexplained solar frequency shift results in a more energetic solar wind, in turn increasing the prevelance and magnitue of thunderstorms starting around 1910, reaching a plateau by 1930. The ionosphere is utterly disrupted and power grids are a disaster waiting to happen.

The slow build-up gives technology time to adapt- most generators are local affairs anyway, but now a national grid is out of the question. Radio range is shorter, telegraphs go obsolete because the long lines are inductive targets for the disturbed magnetic field, and ditto for transoceanic cables.

I swear I didn't want to make annother WWII timeline but the dates work out that way purely from a technology standpoint. They don't know it yet, but the frequent EMP from this timeline's electrical storms will destroy integrated circuits. Only tubes work here.

Transoceanic communication reduced to post service only (radio relay works fine over land where you can build towers, so long as they can handle a powerful lightning strike every month), limiting the coordination of the Allies, but all the other disadvantages hurt the Axis just as much if not more.

After the war, the cold war and the space race really start to diverge. Space radiation is more dangerous now, and we don't have good computers. A number of tube-based satelites go up and relay signals, allowing the first trans-oceanic signals since the '20s.

I see this as a fun place for spy-tech in a mixed '70s era game, where communication and computing is crude but jet tech and a number of other technologies are quite sophisticated.

[scc]

Originally Posted by johndallman

It's only an alternative in that Germany lasts long enough for nukes to be ready. The real-world plan was to use nuclear weapons on Germany, until it became clear in early '45 that Germany was unlikely to last long enough.

Yes, although it's impossible to predict their reaction with certainty. The course of events in Japan between Hiroshima and the surrender was quite complex; their scientists did realise quite quickly that it was an atomic bomb, and knew enough about the physics to understand what that meant and that they had no answer at all. The generals and admirals in the Cabinet were unwilling to admit defeat, and it took the Emperor's intervention to overcome the importance that their military code placed on defending the emperor's honour. They're likely to refuse to surrender until they are nuked too.

Not really, actually. Stalin knew about the project, and understood clearly that B-29s based in Europe could deliver them to the western areas of the USSR. He was fairly good at not showing fear.

I think you're reading modern-day feelings back into the past. Most of Europe would have been quite happy about Germany getting nuked, and the bombs of the time were most effective when used as airbursts, so there was no concentrated fallout. The effect of a contemporary A-bomb is comparable to the bombing of Hamburg, and that wasn't an issue with the European powers that signed up to the North Atlantic Treaty in 1949.

What may make a difference is that there may not be a Berlin Air Lift, because if Berlin's taken a few nukes (it's a very widespread city) it may not be worthwhile for the Western Allies to demand their own zones within Berlin, and hence there's nothing there for the Soviets to start a crisis over. There will likely be some kind of political crisis before 1950, but there's no telling what it will be, and if it will spark the formation of NATO. The North Atlantic Treaty was signed in the final stages of the Berlin Air Lift, and NATO didn't become a substantial military alliance until the Korean War.

I thought the proposed scenario had Germany trounce the USSR because with Hitler they didn't make stupid decisions?

[dcarson]

I'd think the water would shield the oceanic cables. You can shield and bury the other lines also but that drives up the cost.

[johndallman]

Originally Posted by scc

I thought the proposed scenario had Germany trounce the USSR because with Hitler they didn't make stupid decisions?

The proposal was basically "How does the war go if Hitler dies during it?", and there are a lot of possibilities, depending on just when he dies. The part you quoted was addressing a death after the Stalingrad disaster. At that point, Germany has lost too much strength to beat the USSR. It will last longer, but that just means the initial A-bombs are used there rather than on Japan.

[PTTG]

Originally Posted by dcarson

I'd think the water would shield the oceanic cables. You can shield and bury the other lines also but that drives up the cost.

It's not radiation for the transatlantic cables- it's the magnetic field. That shifting and moving under the supercharged solar wind induces current to the point that most transmissions would be impossible.

[Astromancer]

The Islamic conquest of India was of vast importance to Islam. In some ways Islam is still shaped by these vast successes, and much of the political problems of South Asia come from irredentists seeking to regain Islamic hegemony over "Hind." So, what if the Delhi Sultanate had never formed?

A world where India was never conquered by Islamic armies would be very different. The mythologies and myths would be different (less cultural transmission). Europe would be even more isolated from Asia, the Voyages of discovery might not take place until much later. India, which became a unified nation because the Brits took over from the Mughal Empire might be a cluster of small nations like Europe rather than a vast nation like China.

Events obscure in the West, would shape the whole world.