Illusions

[Shiftkitty]

Is an illusion considered a lie for purposes of determining whether or not a Seraph would fall for it? We're running a D&D/In Nomine mix (clearly houseruled like crazy). If a wizard sets up an illusion of a minotaur, should a Seraph get any kind of bonus for seeing that it's an illusion?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Shiftkitty

Is an illusion considered a lie for purposes of determining whether or not a Seraph would fall for it? We're running a D&D/In Nomine mix (clearly houseruled like crazy). If a wizard sets up an illusion of a minotaur, should a Seraph get any kind of bonus for seeing that it's an illusion?

Personally, I'd lean towards giving Seraphim the equivalent of True Sight. A Resonance check will see through any and all illusions or magical concealments. For that matter, given that it's D&D and things like spell levels exist, I'd say that no illusion spells under 3rd or 4th level even have a chance of fooling them, resonance check or not. We are, after all, talking about embodied spirits of cosmic truth here; is some puny mortal illusionist really going to be able to pull the wool over their eyes?

[Rocket Man]

If the wizard casting the illusion is present, I would say to treat it as though it were a disguise being worn or a fake ID presented. Both of those cases, in canon, allow Seraphim their usual chance to see through the fakery.

If the wizard is not present, I would treat it as though the Seraph was hearing a lie on a recording -- possible to see through, but at a penalty to the CD.

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

If the wizard is not present, I would treat it as though the Seraph was hearing a lie on a recording -- possible to see through, but at a penalty to the CD.

I'd reverse that for illusion magic, actually. In the case of an audio/video recording, the recording is true: That really is what was said. So the Seraph gets a penalty for trying to sort out the truth of the recording from the potential truth of the words on the recording. In the case of an illusion, though, it's intrinsically a lie. So if the wizard is there, there's an actual will behind the lie, but if it's a remote illusion, it's a lie without substance: there's nothing backing it or reinforcing it, so the Seraph's eyes can see it's falsity without effort.

[Rocket Man]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

I'd reverse that for illusion magic, actually. In the case of an audio/video recording, the recording is true: That really is what was said. So the Seraph gets a penalty for trying to sort out the truth of the recording from the potential truth of the words on the recording. In the case of an illusion, though, it's intrinsically a lie.

Interesting; I'd never thought of that rationale before. I'd always figured that the Seraph was reading the intent of the soul, and that the recording penalty was because the angel couldn't read the soul directly -- the recording creates a degree of separation. By that logic, an illusion would work the same way.

That said, I love that interpretation! Did I miss it in canon or is it your own great idea?

[Shiftkitty]

That's an awesome idea! I hadn't thought of comparing/contrasting an illusion to a recording!

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Rocket Man

That said, I love that interpretation! Did I miss it in canon or is it your own great idea?

That's all mine. I've never seen a canon explanation per se.

[Shiftkitty]

Consider it swiped, and just in the nick of time! My face-to-face group meets today. This should work awesomely!

[Omegonthesane]

Originally Posted by Dalillama

Personally, I'd lean towards giving Seraphim the equivalent of True Sight. A Resonance check will see through any and all illusions or magical concealments. For that matter, given that it's D&D and things like spell levels exist, I'd say that no illusion spells under 3rd or 4th level even have a chance of fooling them, resonance check or not. We are, after all, talking about embodied spirits of cosmic truth here; is some puny mortal illusionist really going to be able to pull the wool over their eyes?

They get no such special tricks against the Song of Ethereal Light, why should they get it against D&D spellcasting, which is a natural part of the D&D universe rather than an external and Disturbance-inducing imposition?

[Dalillama]

Originally Posted by Omegonthesane

They get no such special tricks against the Song of Ethereal Light, why should they get it against D&D spellcasting, which is a natural part of the D&D universe rather than an external and Disturbance-inducing imposition?

The Song is what amounts to a miracle. It's someone who's got the cheat codes to reality. The Song is bending the Symphony itself to make it deceive the targets, while the wizard is just painting with light/messing with people's neurons, depending on how you interpret the effects of illusion magic.

Edit: Although this may be ad hoc defensive rationalizations after the fact :) . To be honest, I'd totally forgotten that Song initially. I'm also approaching it more from a flavor viewpoint than a game balance one. It feels right to me that Celestials are operating on a different level than mortals when it comes to both perceiving and acting upon reality, and that's definitely true in IN. Meanwhile, in D&D, beings of an angelic nature (From the Higher Planes) often have True Sight or similar as an innate ability, so it feels right that Celestials should have access to similar abilities. Based on that, I'd definitely call a successful Seraphic resonance roll equivalent to True Sight.